What is truth?

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Truth does not exist. It only has any kind of ontological status between what is perceived and what is actual. As such it cannot be absolute only relative.


The truth in not "OUT THERE".
If there is no [out there] there can be no [in there]

Therefore the idea that it is relative is false and not truth.
You are confused.
There is a place that is in and a place that is out. I did not say there is no out there I said that the truth did not exist there.
You conclusion is false.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 9225
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: What is truth?

Post by Dontaskme »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Truth does not exist.


There is a place that is in and a place that is out. I did not say there is no out there I said that the truth did not exist there.
You conclusion is false.
If the truth is not out there then where is it, if you can call it truth then it must exist, why are you taking about something that does not exist, your the one who is confusing yourself.

I'm not confused, I'm thinking outside the box using true logical reasoning, not the usual postage stamp size consensus belief of everyone else.

In and out where is that? except an idea.

There is only herenow everywhere and nowhere all at once.

For the sake of human communication there is an in and an out, known via the knowledge humans have about such things.All knowledge is illusory, it is mentally constructed by thought, which have no actual location or physical properties.
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Truth does not exist.


There is a place that is in and a place that is out. I did not say there is no out there I said that the truth did not exist there.
You conclusion is false.
If the truth is not out there then where is it,
It's a thought generated by the relationship between your perception and reality. But it only exists within us - obviously being conceptual.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 9225
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: What is truth?

Post by Dontaskme »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Truth does not exist.


There is a place that is in and a place that is out. I did not say there is no out there I said that the truth did not exist there.
You conclusion is false.
If the truth is not out there then where is it,
It's a thought generated by the relationship between your perception and reality. But it only exists within us - obviously being conceptual.
Therefore it's neither true nor false...obviously.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

ken wrote:
yiostheoy wrote:There are some people who believe truth is relative and subjective. These are now called relativists.

Others believe truth is absolute and objective. These are now called Empiricists.

They'll never agree.
And that is the reason they will never agree. The power of beliefs will always prevent people from seeing the actual real truth. The truth here is that both truths exist and to believe in one only is extremely foolish. In fact to believe in absolutely anything, besides in Self, is absolutely foolish.
People that see truth as relative do so because they're only interested in serving their own purpose. So if you believe that its true that you have good reason to kill someone, despite the fact that you would rather not be killed, you become a murderer, and that would be OK to you, because you see truth as relative; thus relativists of truth are insane, serving their own insane purpose! The golden rule, based upon empiricism, means nothing to them, jihadist's anyone?

Contrasted, Empiricists see that the truth is equal for all, because proof exists that it's absolutely true; universal. The empiricist may hurt themselves very badly, almost to death, (or the same happens to a loved one), and as they see their truth that they would rather not die, they also can see the absolute truth that others would prefer not to die, as we are all pretty much the same when it comes to death, or their would be a hell of a lot more suicides (empiricism), So they don't believe there is reason in killing/murdering. (All those that commit suicide are mentally challenged in some way, whether physically or of a twisted relative mind set.)

All the murderers/selfish/inconsiderate/uncompassionate are definitely Relativists!!! (these types are fucking nuts)
All the lovers/empath's/considerate/compassionate are definitely Empiricists!!! (these types are the only sane ones)

Take your pick, so we can keep an eye on you!!!

No you can't take a gun up into that tower, nor behind that grassy knoll, or in that window. No you can't dictate others lives, or decide who should die, and who shouldn't!! Why, because when it comes to truth you're a relativist, a fucking insane nutbag, instead you belong in a cage!

Truth is absolute, EQUAL for everyone!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You fear it? Don't do it! Because others feel the same fucking way, you fucking idiots!!!!! You still want to do it? Do it to your fucking self, that will fix you for fucking sure!!!!! Then all the empiricists, the truly loving people, shall mourn your relativistically misguided death. "The relativism of the class system, the biggest relativist culprit of them all." Relative money, relative power, relative brains; all horse shit created by a fucking dumb selfish animal, still steeped in that fear for survival as when it first walked the earth, despite the fact that our current level of intellect/knowledge/technology could make it null and void!! Fear, the one thing the stupid animal seems to never be capable of shaking! So seemingly it's doomed, unless we all can shake it and finally come together, actually being intelligent and cooperative; one life; one symbiotic biosphere!

Seven billion strong and climbing, so use your brain for once and ask what happens when it overflows, full of relativism, in terms of believed truths? Chaos! Anarchy!

The spheres must balance my friends!

Fact is, none of you can give me a relative truth that's sound, I can debunk any relative truth you can supply. Go ahead and try, if you dare. But be ready for the argument of your life.

And that's all I have to say on the matter! Because it's absolutely true. It's universal for ALL!!! "One planet, under universal rule!" Bet some of you believed I was going to say, "under god," right? Actually It's really the same thing!

Finally, for those of you that are incapable of getting it, the rant is over! ;-)
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Truth does not exist. It only has any kind of ontological status between what is perceived and what is actual. As such it cannot be absolute only relative.


The truth in not "OUT THERE".
If there is no [out there] there can be no [in there]

Therefore the idea that it is relative is false and not truth.
You are confused.
There is a place that is in and a place that is out. I did not say there is no out there I said that the truth did not exist there.
You conclusion is false.
You're dead wrong, all that is meant when someone says that "the truth is out there." Is that it is not necessarily currently contained in anyone's mind, that it is still to be determined, that once the evidence, the empirical data is completely collected, the truth can be realized. So you're a fool that thinks he knows everything, much like chaz wyman used to believe, maybe he still does, huh HC?
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Truth does not exist.


There is a place that is in and a place that is out. I did not say there is no out there I said that the truth did not exist there.
You conclusion is false.
If the truth is not out there then where is it,
It's a thought generated by the relationship between your perception and reality. But it only exists within us - obviously being conceptual.
Wrong!! E.G., No human knows it, because it wasn't observed by any human, but in fact asteroid A made of nickel bumped into asteroid B, made of iron. The truth of this event it not in any human mind, it is "out there." Later we happen to test asteroid A and Asteroid B, and found that they each had remnants of one another embedded in their surface's because they remained "out there" for us to find. Now we know the truth that they collided, because that truth remained "out there," now it's also in our minds so it's "in here;" the "human knowledge base." I can do the same thing with paleontology, archeology, anthropology, quantum mechanics, astrophysics, actually any science that's based upon discoveries yet undiscovered, those that are still "out there," not yet "in here." Get it? I know you're smart enough! ;-)

P.S. Actually HC your argument defeats itself!

Edit: the P.S.
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Truth does not exist.


There is a place that is in and a place that is out. I did not say there is no out there I said that the truth did not exist there.
You conclusion is false.
Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
If the truth is not out there then where is it,
It's a thought generated by the relationship between your perception and reality. But it only exists within us - obviously being conceptual.
Therefore it's neither true nor false...obviously.
Please pay no attention to HC, he's not quite smart enough to understand these very simplistic ideas. He reads books of fantasy and buys into them hook line and sinker, because of cronyism and groupism! In other words, hero worship. I find it best to worship no god, whether he be a man or not. Instead it's best to understand the basis of their argument then think for yourself if other more sound philosophical ideologies dictate. In this case science, the child of philosophy, something much more current, trumps it's father.
ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by ken »

yiostheoy wrote: Most if not all the philosophy books I have read condemn relativism as immoral and valueless.

That is why I also condemn it. It is nothing more than Sophistry.
And none of these arguments condemning relativism are false, misleading, unsound, nor invalid in any way, shape nor form?

Let me guess all and only the arguments supporting, what side you believe is right, i.e., empiricism, are not sophistry?

It never ceases to amaze me how many people only see and find what they want to see and find.

Also, do you really get that much of your guidance from books? Is your life guided that much by what other people say?
yiostheoy
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:49 pm
Location: California USSA

Re: What is truth?

Post by yiostheoy »

ken wrote:
yiostheoy wrote: Most if not all the philosophy books I have read condemn relativism as immoral and valueless.

That is why I also condemn it. It is nothing more than Sophistry.
And none of these arguments condemning relativism are false, misleading, unsound, nor invalid in any way, shape nor form?

Let me guess all and only the arguments supporting, what side you believe is right, i.e., empiricism, are not sophistry?

It never ceases to amaze me how many people only see and find what they want to see and find.

Also, do you really get that much of your guidance from books? Is your life guided that much by what other people say?
It helps to do a complete survey of what it out there before you decide on what to embrace yourself.

That's basically my decision model for everything.

Empiricism is great because it makes the most sense.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

ken wrote:
yiostheoy wrote: Most if not all the philosophy books I have read condemn relativism as immoral and valueless.

That is why I also condemn it. It is nothing more than Sophistry.
And none of these arguments condemning relativism are false, misleading, unsound, nor invalid in any way, shape nor form?
Of course they can be, but the quest is to ensure they're not, hence constant revision of scientific findings. Of course the same can't be said for relativistic truth, as it's basis is that you can believe what you want to in it's name.


Let me guess all and only the arguments supporting, what side you believe is right, i.e., empiricism, are not
sophistry?
By definition, No!

sophistry [sof-uh-stree]
noun, plural sophistries.
1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism.

empiricism [em-pir-uh-siz-uh m]
noun
1. empirical method or practice.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from sense experience. Compare rationalism (def 2).
3. undue reliance upon experience, as in medicine; quackery.
4. an empirical conclusion.

relativism [rel-uh-tuh-viz-uh m]
noun, Philosophy.
1. any theory holding that criteria of judgment are relative, varying with individuals and their environments.


It never ceases to amaze me how many people only see and find what they want to see and find.
Now you're speaking of relativists!


Also, do you really get that much of your guidance from books? Is your life guided that much by what other people say?
For the wise, Truth is self evident, and supports all things equally! Yes, even relativists!
ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by ken »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: People that see truth as relative do so because they're only interested in serving their own purpose. So if you believe that its true that you have good reason to kill someone, despite the fact that you would rather not be killed, you become a murderer, and that would be OK to you, because you see truth as relative; thus relativists of truth are insane, serving their own insane purpose! The golden rule, based upon empiricism, means nothing to them, jihadist's anyone?

Contrasted, Empiricists see that the truth is equal for all, because proof exists that it's absolutely true; universal. The empiricist may hurt themselves very badly, almost to death, (or the same happens to a loved one), and as they see their truth that they would rather not die, they also can see the absolute truth that others would prefer not to die, as we are all pretty much the same when it comes to death, or their would be a hell of a lot more suicides (empiricism), So they don't believe there is reason in killing/murdering. (All those that commit suicide are mentally challenged in some way, whether physically or of a twisted relative mind set.)

All the murderers/selfish/inconsiderate/uncompassionate are definitely Relativists!!! (these types are fucking nuts)
All the lovers/empath's/considerate/compassionate are definitely Empiricists!!! (these types are the only sane ones)

Take your pick, so we can keep an eye on you!!!

No you can't take a gun up into that tower, nor behind that grassy knoll, or in that window. No you can't dictate others lives, or decide who should die, and who shouldn't!! Why, because when it comes to truth you're a relativist, a fucking insane nutbag, instead you belong in a cage!

Truth is absolute, EQUAL for everyone!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You fear it? Don't do it! Because others feel the same fucking way, you fucking idiots!!!!! You still want to do it? Do it to your fucking self, that will fix you for fucking sure!!!!! Then all the empiricists, the truly loving people, shall mourn your relativistically misguided death. "The relativism of the class system, the biggest relativist culprit of them all." Relative money, relative power, relative brains; all horse shit created by a fucking dumb selfish animal, still steeped in that fear for survival as when it first walked the earth, despite the fact that our current level of intellect/knowledge/technology could make it null and void!! Fear, the one thing the stupid animal seems to never be capable of shaking! So seemingly it's doomed, unless we all can shake it and finally come together, actually being intelligent and cooperative; one life; one symbiotic biosphere!

Seven billion strong and climbing, so use your brain for once and ask what happens when it overflows, full of relativism, in terms of believed truths? Chaos! Anarchy!

The spheres must balance my friends!

Fact is, none of you can give me a relative truth that's sound, I can debunk any relative truth you can supply. Go ahead and try, if you dare. But be ready for the argument of your life.

An d that's all I have to say on the matter! Because it's absolutely true. It's universal for ALL!!! "One planet, under universal rule!" Bet some of you believed I was going to say, "under god," right? Actually It's really the same thing!

Finally, for those of you that are incapable of getting it, the rant is over! ;-)
Are you able to see that 1. relative truth, and 2. absolute truth, both exist?
If you cannot see this, then 1. why not? 2. why do you talk about relative truth as though it does exist?

They both exist. This is an absolute, universal truth. So just accept it. A so called "empiricist" can accept all universal truths, as you pointed out. What side do you take, empiricist or relativist?

You said to me to "Take your pick, so we can keep and eye on you!!!", well I will tell you here and now that I never take sides. There is never one side only. The universe just does not work that way. I am not able to uncover, find and see truth by believing one side only. If you want to take one side, then so be it.

If as you say "All the lovers/empath's/considerate/compassionate are definitely Empiricists" and they are the only sane ones, and you are an empiricist, then why do you say that the "others" are insane nutbags who belong in a cage? It does not make sense to me how you can be making out that you are sane and compassionate yet everyone else, without your beliefs, are insane and deserve no compassion. Can you please explain how you can have this very obvious ambiguous view? Your arguments sound extremely unsound and invalid to me.

You have also stated, "Truth is absolute, EQUAL for everyone!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" If that is truly the case, then everyone could agree on THAT what is true, right? And, that IS what truth is? This is what I have been saying all along, so you would now have to agree that we are in total agreement here of what truth is.

You say that the fact is no person can give you a relative truth that is sound and you challenge me/us to do so. Before I could attempt I need you to give your definition of 'relative truth'. After you provide that definition then I will tell you if I can give you a sound relative truth or not. If I can, then I will.

You say that, "One planet, under universal rule!" is absolutely true. It's universal for ALL!!! I'll ask you what is the universal rule? You seem so sure of yourself here. I would love to be enlightened by this universal rule that we all are supposedly living under.

Also, why do you swear on here?
ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by ken »

yiostheoy wrote: It helps to do a complete survey of what it out there before you decide on what to embrace yourself.

That's basically my decision model for everything.
The "complete" word needs to emphasized here. I wonder how much of everything you have actually completed before you decided what to embrace?
yiostheoy wrote:Empiricism is great because it makes the most sense.
I think you meant to write, "Empiricism is great to me because it makes the most sense to me.

An empiricist is just as stupid as a relativist. Any person that calls themselves a word, which they really are not, is a person who is not able to learn and understand more. Instead of choosing a model to embrace yourself on, why not just be yourself?
yiostheoy
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:49 pm
Location: California USSA

Re: What is truth?

Post by yiostheoy »

ken wrote:
yiostheoy wrote: It helps to do a complete survey of what it out there before you decide on what to embrace yourself.

That's basically my decision model for everything.
The "complete" word needs to emphasized here. I wonder how much of everything you have actually completed before you decided what to embrace?
yiostheoy wrote:Empiricism is great because it makes the most sense.
I think you meant to write, "Empiricism is great to me because it makes the most sense to me.

An empiricist is just as stupid as a relativist. Any person that calls themselves a word, which they really are not, is a person who is not able to learn and understand more. Instead of choosing a model to embrace yourself on, why not just be yourself?
Strange comments. Strange red herrings as well.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

ken wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: People that see truth as relative do so because they're only interested in serving their own purpose. So if you believe that its true that you have good reason to kill someone, despite the fact that you would rather not be killed, you become a murderer, and that would be OK to you, because you see truth as relative; thus relativists of truth are insane, serving their own insane purpose! The golden rule, based upon empiricism, means nothing to them, jihadist's anyone?

Contrasted, Empiricists see that the truth is equal for all, because proof exists that it's absolutely true; universal. The empiricist may hurt themselves very badly, almost to death, (or the same happens to a loved one), and as they see their truth that they would rather not die, they also can see the absolute truth that others would prefer not to die, as we are all pretty much the same when it comes to death, or their would be a hell of a lot more suicides (empiricism), So they don't believe there is reason in killing/murdering. (All those that commit suicide are mentally challenged in some way, whether physically or of a twisted relative mind set.)

All the murderers/selfish/inconsiderate/uncompassionate are definitely Relativists!!! (these types are fucking nuts)
All the lovers/empath's/considerate/compassionate are definitely Empiricists!!! (these types are the only sane ones)

Take your pick, so we can keep an eye on you!!!

No you can't take a gun up into that tower, nor behind that grassy knoll, or in that window. No you can't dictate others lives, or decide who should die, and who shouldn't!! Why, because when it comes to truth you're a relativist, a fucking insane nutbag, instead you belong in a cage!

Truth is absolute, EQUAL for everyone!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You fear it? Don't do it! Because others feel the same fucking way, you fucking idiots!!!!! You still want to do it? Do it to your fucking self, that will fix you for fucking sure!!!!! Then all the empiricists, the truly loving people, shall mourn your relativistically misguided death. "The relativism of the class system, the biggest relativist culprit of them all." Relative money, relative power, relative brains; all horse shit created by a fucking dumb selfish animal, still steeped in that fear for survival as when it first walked the earth, despite the fact that our current level of intellect/knowledge/technology could make it null and void!! Fear, the one thing the stupid animal seems to never be capable of shaking! So seemingly it's doomed, unless we all can shake it and finally come together, actually being intelligent and cooperative; one life; one symbiotic biosphere!

Seven billion strong and climbing, so use your brain for once and ask what happens when it overflows, full of relativism, in terms of believed truths? Chaos! Anarchy!

The spheres must balance my friends!

Fact is, none of you can give me a relative truth that's sound, I can debunk any relative truth you can supply. Go ahead and try, if you dare. But be ready for the argument of your life.

An d that's all I have to say on the matter! Because it's absolutely true. It's universal for ALL!!! "One planet, under universal rule!" Bet some of you believed I was going to say, "under god," right? Actually It's really the same thing!

Finally, for those of you that are incapable of getting it, the rant is over! ;-)
Are you able to see that 1. relative truth, and 2. absolute truth, both exist?
Ken you're not understanding my rant. Because I'm relatively old, much of my rants contain, (between the lines), truths that I believe to be self evident, (so I leave them out), if someone misses those, they often miss the entire thing. I believe that universally, there is no such thing as relative truth. Those things which people call relative truth's are actually falsehoods, not containing truth whatsoever. Understand?

If you cannot see this, then 1. why not? 2. why do you talk about relative truth as though it does exist?
We have to make a distinction here. There are things that "are" universal to all people, then there are things that "can be" relative to all people. In terms of vegetables, it might be true that kale tastes best to you and zucchini tastes best to me, but it's a falsehood to say that either kale or zucchini tastes best. A lot of young men might argue over which band is best, their 'preference' just can't be true universally. Those types of truths, philosophically, really don't matter. The truths I'm always speaking of, are of the universal type! They are really the only ones important to philosophy. Everyone knows, I'm sure, that personal preference for something is often relative amongst people, it's subjective.

They both exist. This is an absolute, universal truth. So just accept it. A so called "empiricist" can accept all universal truths, as you pointed out. What side do you take, empiricist or relativist?
Universally, I'm an empiricist.


You said to me to "Take your pick, so we can keep and eye on you!!!", well I will tell you here and now that I never take sides. There is never one side only. The universe just does not work that way. I am not able to uncover, find and see truth by believing one side only. If you want to take one side, then so be it.
I was referring to universal truths. I kind of went off due to things in my life that defy the universal, a means of releasing steam. ;-) Which I hope was apparent.


If as you say "All the lovers/empath's/considerate/compassionate are definitely Empiricists" and they are the only sane ones, and you are an empiricist, then why do you say that the "others" are insane nutbags who belong in a cage? It does not make sense to me how you can be making out that you are sane and compassionate yet everyone else, without your beliefs, are insane and deserve no compassion. Can you please explain how you can have this very obvious ambiguous view? Your arguments sound extremely unsound and invalid to me.
See immediately above. Here, in this philosophy forum, I'm only ever referencing universal truths.


You have also stated, "Truth is absolute, EQUAL for everyone!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" If that is truly the case, then everyone could agree on THAT what is true, right? And, that IS what truth is? This is what I have been saying all along, so you would now have to agree that we are in total agreement here of what truth is.
Universal truths are.


You say that the fact is no person can give you a relative truth that is sound and you challenge me/us to do so. Before I could attempt I need you to give your definition of 'relative truth'. After you provide that definition then I will tell you if I can give you a sound relative truth or not. If I can, then I will.
You sound like a very level headed and patient person, good for you! ;-)


You say that, "One planet, under universal rule!" is absolutely true. It's universal for ALL!!! I'll ask you what is the universal rule? You seem so sure of yourself here. I would love to be enlightened by this universal rule that we all are supposedly living under.
Here I refer to the actual universe; that which bore us, and that which ends us, at least this particular form.


Also, why do you swear on here?
Like I said, I've recently been dealing with situations with possible grave consequences, so I was blowing off steam! People fucking over people for the sake of a glittering prize really pisses me off. When this type thing touches my life I sometimes dive off the deep end, with scorn and ridicule! ;-)
Post Reply