Knowing how versus Knowing that

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:16 pm

Want to talk of counterpoint, or maybe syncopation. Not, harmony it's too easy.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:40 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:High level skill is different than a low level skill.
More ability is a higher level than lower ability; yes a difference of LEVEL.
Why not try 'Angry Birds"? - your favourite game. Level One is easy, and level Two is harder.
If I were to call you a fucking idiot. That means that your ability to think is at a lower level than mine.
Do you remember at school when you were in remedial class, and they told you and the other drongos that your appreciation of maths, and English was "different" from the kids in the top set; those that managed to graduate with honours. Remember? Yes, well when they told you, that you were "different", that was just a polite way of saying you were stupid. Ahh, remember? Think hard. Yes, they called you 'special". Do you remember?
"Special" is different, is less able. Lower achievement; stupid.
I did not mean to hit you so philosophically hard. I'm sorry! ;)

What do you need me to explain?

That levels are just figments of your imagination, how you cope, how you justify your existence?


No one's better or worse than anyone!

What does that mean?

It means that everyone has the exact same potential!!!!

'That some shall seek and find their life's meaning, and some shall turn their heads the other way!'

It's a choice one makes along the way, born of ignorance, or not.

Lucky for you: 'Yes there are ever multiple paths you can go down, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road your on.'



ART IS IN FACT SUBJECTIVE!
You poor thing.
Art is not subjective. The appreciation of art can be.
What I say not only appeals to piano playing, whose skill is easily quantifiable, but also other skills too numerous to mention; from the distance you can throw a ball, to maths, and wanking which you can do so well.

"No one's better or worse than anyone!". What a bunch a crapology.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:43 pm

thedoc wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
thedoc wrote:

LV, do you play a musical instrument? and if so, what do you play, instrument and pieces?
In my time I've tried the violin, bass guitar and piano. But I was always best on the drumkit.
By music or ear, or both? I play the piano but I'm a slave to the music, and haven't been able to play by ear, yet.
The violin and piano was strictly via manuscript. Drums was all feeling.
Some people have the talent for by-ear music, I don't.
In that sense, my skill level is low.

thedoc
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by thedoc » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:13 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote: In my time I've tried the violin, bass guitar and piano. But I was always best on the drumkit.
By music or ear, or both? I play the piano but I'm a slave to the music, and haven't been able to play by ear, yet.
The violin and piano was strictly via manuscript. Drums was all feeling.
Some people have the talent for by-ear music, I don't.
In that sense, my skill level is low.

You seem to be implying that playing by ear requires more skill, with that I need to disagree, but perhaps that is not what you meant. I have heard pianists who play from music and some who play by ear and the level of skill in the playing was equal, from what I heard. When I say playing from music I mean playing music that was written by someone else rather than improvising their own music, just to be clear.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:11 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:High level skill is different than a low level skill.
More ability is a higher level than lower ability; yes a difference of LEVEL.
Why not try 'Angry Birds"? - your favourite game. Level One is easy, and level Two is harder.
If I were to call you a fucking idiot. That means that your ability to think is at a lower level than mine.
Do you remember at school when you were in remedial class, and they told you and the other drongos that your appreciation of maths, and English was "different" from the kids in the top set; those that managed to graduate with honours. Remember? Yes, well when they told you, that you were "different", that was just a polite way of saying you were stupid. Ahh, remember? Think hard. Yes, they called you 'special". Do you remember?
"Special" is different, is less able. Lower achievement; stupid.
I did not mean to hit you so philosophically hard. I'm sorry! ;)

What do you need me to explain?

That levels are just figments of your imagination, how you cope, how you justify your existence?


No one's better or worse than anyone!

What does that mean?

It means that everyone has the exact same potential!!!!

'That some shall seek and find their life's meaning, and some shall turn their heads the other way!'

It's a choice one makes along the way, born of ignorance, or not.

Lucky for you: 'Yes there are ever multiple paths you can go down, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road your on.'



ART IS IN FACT SUBJECTIVE!
You poor thing.
Art is not subjective. The appreciation of art can be.
Same thing! It's funny how the deluded try and split hairs in order to qualify.

What I say not only appeals to piano playing, whose skill is easily quantifiable, but also other skills too numerous to mention; from the distance you can throw a ball, to maths, and wanking which you can do so well.
You're missing the point. Is it better to throw it far of near? Is it a higher level to play loud or soft, fast or slow, staccato or legato, should there be many notes, or much rests between notes. Level as you seem to promote, depends solely upon who sets the bar, and the bar can be set anywhere, all art is subjective, as to art there are no levels, a so called priceless Van Gogh isn't worth squat, and a dime a dozen child's picture is worth millions. You my boy are missing the boat, caught up in consumerism, simply a tool.


"No one's better or worse than anyone!". What a bunch a crapology.
So what, you seek to promote self at the expense of others, you have nothing to be ashamed of, you're in good company, there are many that see things as you do. Chase that illusive level and see where it will get you in the end. You'll just die and rot like everyone else. There are no levels, only figments of ones imagination, built of selfish wants, and desires, to qualify ones existence, so as to believe they are better than another.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:15 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote: In my time I've tried the violin, bass guitar and piano. But I was always best on the drumkit.
thedoc wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
thedoc wrote:
By music or ear, or both? I play the piano but I'm a slave to the music, and haven't been able to play by ear, yet.
The violin and piano was strictly via manuscript. Drums was all feeling.
Some people have the talent for by-ear music, I don't.
In that sense, my skill level is low.

You seem to be implying that playing by ear requires more skill, with that I need to disagree, but perhaps that is not what you meant. I have heard pianists who play from music and some who play by ear and the level of skill in the playing was equal, from what I heard. When I say playing from music I mean playing music that was written by someone else rather than improvising their own music, just to be clear.
It's good you made that clear doc as according to an old piano teaching program I own, playing by ear means that one can hear the notes of a tune, and later play it by sounding it out note by note. Or so the instructor says. I haven't consulted wikipedia yet.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:20 pm

thedoc wrote:

LV, do you play a musical instrument? and if so, what do you play, instrument and pieces?
Lev Muishkin wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
In my time I've tried the violin, bass guitar and piano. But I was always best on the drumkit.
By music or ear, or both? I play the piano but I'm a slave to the music, and haven't been able to play by ear, yet.
The violin and piano was strictly via manuscript. Drums was all feeling.
Some people have the talent for by-ear music, I don't.
In that sense, my skill level is low.
Your ability is low because it's not as serious for you, as it is one that is far better.

I play too, but like many, I've never been that serious about it either, so my ability is also low. In those moments when I pick it back up, and practice long and hard, I grow by leaps and bounds, but alas those times are few and far between. I'll never be a professional musician. But I still hope to at least crank out one song attempt. Whether it's level is high or low shall be a subjective perspective.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:32 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:]
Lev Muishkin wrote:
thedoc wrote: By music or ear, or both? I play the piano but I'm a slave to the music, and haven't been able to play by ear, yet.
The violin and piano was strictly via manuscript. Drums was all feeling.
Some people have the talent for by-ear music, I don't.
In that sense, my skill level is low.
Your ability is low because it's not as serious for you, as it is one that is far better.

I play too, but like many, I've never been that serious about it either, so my ability is also low. .
"LOW" , not "different"?
How easily you abandon your own argument.

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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:37 pm

thedoc wrote: By music or ear, or both? I play the piano but I'm a slave to the music, and haven't been able to play by ear, yet.
Lev Muishkin wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:]
Lev Muishkin wrote:
The violin and piano was strictly via manuscript. Drums was all feeling.
Some people have the talent for by-ear music, I don't.
In that sense, my skill level is low.
Your ability is low because it's not as serious for you, as it is one that is far better.

I play too, but like many, I've never been that serious about it either, so my ability is also low. .
"LOW" , not "different"?
How easily you abandon your own argument.
No, just speaking your language so you can understand!

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:42 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote: "LOW" , not "different"?
How easily you abandon your own argument.
No, just speaking your language so you can understand!
So you are saying my cognition is lower than yours?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:54 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote: "LOW" , not "different"?
How easily you abandon your own argument.
No, just speaking your language so you can understand!
So you are saying my cognition is lower than yours?
No, you just said that.

But you are correct, that is the single point of contention I had with your original, when I initially challenged you.

and I quote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.
It was you just patting yourself on the back, nothing more! I don't believe you've actually done the scientific studies required to make such a claim.


As a matter of fact I saw a documentary on autistic players of pianos, one was even blind. And though no real ability to hold a conversation existed, the scientists were questioning what it was that spoke to these people, allowing them to play as well, and be as prolific as they were. It was quite an amazing show. I would dare to bet, that they played better than you or I, assuming our version of playing 'better' agreed. Though there is no necessary accounting for such subjective perspectives.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:03 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: No, just speaking your language so you can understand!
So you are saying my cognition is lower than yours?
No, you just said that.

But you are correct, that is the single point of contention I had with your original, when I initially challenged you.

and I quote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.
It was you just patting yourself on the back, nothing more! I don't believe you've actually done the scientific studies required to make such a claim.
.
Wrong again. Or more aptly Wrong, as fucking usual. I'm shit at piano.
This give me an insight into the tragedy of your mind.

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