There is no such thing as knowing

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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reasonvemotion
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by reasonvemotion » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:40 am

Answer my questions above, please?

I don't understand much of the content.

It sounds like Marshall Applewhite.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:15 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
Answer my questions above, please?

I don't understand much of the content.

It sounds like Marshall Applewhite.
Here, since you seem to be side stepping, maybe not, but this below, as written above is quite clear, and address's your previous, point by point, care to continue?
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
reasonvemotion wrote:I don't fear death.
So you say.

Only the suffering I may have to endure.
And that my friend is death.

I am thinking SOB, you fear death because you approach it from your ego's point of view.
The argument is not that I fear death, it's that everyone does! Nothing worse than an uninformed opponent. Reading, is in fact, good for ones argument.

You said you know there will be people who will mourn your death.
For everyone that knows love, this is true, I'm sorry, do you not know love?

Is that important to you?
Is love important to you?

For me, death means, the dead know nothing.
Yes, this is what one may try to convince themselves, a philosophy to blanket the fear.

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Arising_uk
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:23 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:...
You can say anything, but the facts stand by themselves. The scientific study has the answers, not some small fry in the UK, that likes to argue on a forum.
Given CW says he's faced the reality of cancer I'd say he has a fair idea of what fear of death entails.

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Arising_uk
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:48 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:It would seem that you have forgotten that we are speaking of the act of dying.
(This then, is the reason I don't like the way you delete everything but the last entry)
I thought we were speaking about knowing? But where I came in was with your assertion that what all men fear most is death, qualified by you saying all sane men.

I post this way as the post get to big and messy to quickly your way. Mine just entails rolling back and allows me to track whats been said easier.
Yes, but you assume that everyone is somehow caught up in this ambiguous 'highest point,' as I see there is no such necessary thing.
All I said was that how one lives ones life appears to have an impact upon how one views or fears their death or dying.
Yes, I see that the act of dying in in fact death, as one is certainly no longer living, and that pain takes many forms.
I see the act of dying as the last act of living.
Again, you speak of their appearance, so I assume you have witnessed this, first hand?
Nope, just the sequence of stills of Thich Quang Duc and recently the Tibetan immolations. All that appear to show that all don't fear death.
Fear is an emotion contained within ones mind, and while there may be a physical expression of it, it does not necessarily follow, that no physical expression, means no fear in ones mind; non sequitur.
You appear to want it both ways. You say I can't tell if they are really fearful because I can't tell whats in their minds and yet neither can you but you appear to be using this as an argument that they way I judge such things is in error?

If it is disassociated from physical expression in this way then why can't one just not fear it? What is there to fear if its all in the mind?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:57 am

Arising_uk wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:...
You can say anything, but the facts stand by themselves. The scientific study has the answers, not some small fry in the UK, that likes to argue on a forum.
Given CW says he's faced the reality of cancer I'd say he has a fair idea of what fear of death entails.
Supposition, as you do not know enough to make that call, as to it being fair, so as to actually know with certainty, but of course you can say anything you want.

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Hjarloprillar
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Hjarloprillar » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:14 am

agree. but for
cogito ergo sum

This the set is not an absolute

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:35 am

Arising_uk wrote:SoB: Expanded, and addressed below, sentence by sentence.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:... The act of dying, surely, is more closely related to death than it is living.
How so? As there is nothing to relate to in death?
Surely the act of dying is the ultimate expression of being alive?
Not nice and long to be delayed if possible but many at the end wish for death rather than life.
There's also Buddhists who appear to be able to sit quite calmly through it.
AUK: How so? As there is nothing to relate to in death?
SoB: Exactly!
AUK:Then you can't know about it, which counters your argument I'd have thought?
SoB: One can be sure of what it's not.
AUK: Well its not living thats for sure but there is nothing else to consider.
SoB: It would seem that you have forgotten that we are speaking of the act of dying.
AUK: I thought we were speaking about knowing? But where I came in was with your assertion that what all men fear most is death, qualified by you saying all sane men.
Yes and I am speaking of the knowing based upon a 25 year scientific study, while by comparison, you speak of a few isolated bits of belief, i.e., Chaz, monks, etc., which can only be seen as supposition, relatively speaking.
SoB:(This then, is the reason I don't like the way you delete everything but the last entry)
AUK: I post this way as the post get to big and messy to quickly your way. Mine just entails rolling back and allows me to track whats been said easier.
I disagree, why do you think there is quoting of 4 deep in the first place? If you are familiar with USENET, "News Groups," then you are aware that the depth is virtually infinitely deep. I see that you only think of yourself and no other readers.
AUK: Surely the act of dying is the ultimate expression of being alive?
SoB: Not at all, I would say that being born is.
AUK: Fair point, so the culmination of living and how you face it a reflection of how you've lived.
SoB: To conceive of a 'highest point' is ambiguous, highest point from what/whose perspective.
AUK: Eh! There is only one perspective in this matter, the one who is dying.
SoB: Yes, but you assume that everyone is somehow caught up in this ambiguous 'highest point,' as I see there is no such necessary thing.
AUK: All I said was that how one lives ones life appears to have an impact upon how one views or fears their death or dying.
That's not what you said, see "...culmination..." above. As to this clarification, I say, not according to the 25 year study. Everyone fears death, and everyone try's to cover it up.
AUK: Not nice and long to be delayed if possible but many at the end wish for death rather than life.
SoB: While caught in an inescapable event, so as to end the pain.
AUK: So death not the ultimate fear?
SoB: Death is the ultimate pain, as it includes that which I have said and more.
AUK: Death is no pain at all, unless you mean the dying? And even there its not universally so.
SoB: Yes, I see that the act of dying in in fact death, as one is certainly no longer living, and that pain takes many forms.
AUK: I see the act of dying as the last act of living.
Yes, so as to somehow minimize the associated anxiety. But I see that in truth when you're actually realizing it, you'll see it much differently. Why do you think there is so much talk of PTSD for the soldiers of today? Because the horrors of death, for them, has finally become real.
AUK: There's also Buddhists who appear to be able to sit quite calmly through it.
SoB: Yes, appear! but how could one possibly know what's going on, on the inside.
AUK: :shock: Because they are sitting there calmly.
SoB: :shock: You said, quite accurately, if it be true at all, they "appear to." I spoke of their inner self which may not be apparent.
AUK: You can't have it all ways. If you're saying that 'inside' they are writhing about in pain I'd question your definition of pain as they are sitting there apparently quite calmly? Also, if I can't know this 'inner self' then how can you assert it? Apart from that, they still appear to be unafraid of dying? Which you say is not a possible case.
SoB: Again, you speak of their appearance, so I assume you have witnessed this, first hand?
AUK: Nope, just the sequence of stills of Thich Quang Duc and recently the Tibetan immolations. All that appear to show that all don't fear death.
OK, you are consistent, you admit that stills 'appear' to you, to be justified true belief.

SoB: Fear is an emotion contained within ones mind, and while there may be a physical expression of it, it does not necessarily follow, that no physical expression, means no fear in ones mind; non sequitur.
AUK: You appear to want it both ways. You say I can't tell if they are really fearful because I can't tell whats in their minds and yet neither can you but you appear to be using this as an argument that they way I judge such things is in error?
Not at all, I'm saying that your casual association, via the media, cannot compare to a 25 year scientific study.

AUK: If it is disassociated from physical expression in this way then why can't one just not fear it? What is there to fear if its all in the mind?
How could there possibly be a disassociation when one is speaking of seemingly controlling something through meditation? If one runs from something, does the something disappear? Then why run? As to fear there are only: fight, flight, or play possum, and in all these cases, the fear is acknowledged, so as to do so.

"Fear is an emotion induced by a perceived threat which causes entities to quickly pull away from it and usually hide. It is a basic survival mechanism occurring in response to a specific stimulus, such as pain or the threat of danger. In short, fear is the ability to recognize danger leading to an urge to confront it or flee from it (also known as the fight-or-flight response) but in extreme cases of fear (horror and terror) a freeze or paralysis response is possible." --Wikipedia--

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:42 am

Hjarloprillar wrote:agree. but for
cogito ergo sum

This the set is not an absolute
Auk is speaking of another's response to a particular emotion, as if with certain knowledge of it, and while one is certainly aware of their selves, to the extent they are capable, they cannot be certain of another's capabilities in dealing with their emotions, unless they actually become the other person. To assert so, is commonly known as projection. Remember that we are talking of a particular way in which one deals with something.

Edit: Sorry, I was tired and stated my case incorrectly, thanks to RE for catching the mistake.
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

reasonvemotion
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by reasonvemotion » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:28 pm

Reason wrote:

Spheres wrote:
I don't fear death.
So you say.
I am going to use your answer to respond to this.
...... speaking of anothers knowledge, as if with certain knowledge of it, and while one is certainly aware of their selves, to the extent they are capable, they cannot be certain of another's capabilities. To assert so, is commonly known as projection. Remember that we are talking of a particular way in which one deals with something.
Only the suffering I may have to endure.

And that my friend is death.

I am thinking SOB, you fear death because you approach it from your ego's point of view.

The argument is not that I fear death, it's that everyone does! Nothing worse than an uninformed opponent. Reading, is in fact, good for ones argument.
Are you not part of "everyone". To satisfy that ego of yours, yes, I did read every word you wrote.

You said you know there will be people who will mourn your death.

For everyone that knows love, this is true, I'm sorry, do you not know love?
What has love got to do with it?

Is that important to you?

Is love important to you?
No.

For me, death means, the dead know nothing.

Yes, this is what one may try to convince themselves, a philosophy to blanket the fear.

You may find, there are many people who have faced situations in their lives, more terrible than actual death. This in turn negates their fear of death.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:42 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:
Reason wrote:

Spheres wrote:
I don't fear death.
So you say.
I am going to use your answer to respond to this.
...... speaking of anothers knowledge, as if with certain knowledge of it, and while one is certainly aware of their selves, to the extent they are capable, they cannot be certain of another's capabilities. To assert so, is commonly known as projection. Remember that we are talking of a particular way in which one deals with something.
Thanks for catching my mistake, my words were not accurate. You shall have to reread to decide if it still applies, I don't see that it does.
Only the suffering I may have to endure.

And that my friend is death.

I am thinking SOB, you fear death because you approach it from your ego's point of view.

The argument is not that I fear death, it's that everyone does! Nothing worse than an uninformed opponent. Reading, is in fact, good for ones argument.
Are you not part of "everyone". To satisfy that ego of yours, yes, I did read every word you wrote.
No you didn't, because the argument was never about me, the argument is about everyone that means you too. Everyone means everyone! I can't believe you're having problems with this.
You said you know there will be people who will mourn your death.

For everyone that knows love, this is true, I'm sorry, do you not know love?
What has love got to do with it?
If you do not understand, I feel sorry for you.
Is that important to you?

Is love important to you?
No.
Again I feel sorry for you, as it would seem that you're incapable of understanding. Though I think you're lying to me, as you'd have to love life in order to care about a hookers comment on not having any fresh fruit, so as to say it "breaks your heart?"
For me, death means, the dead know nothing.

Yes, this is what one may try to convince themselves, a philosophy to blanket the fear.

You may find, there are many people who have faced situations in their lives, more terrible than actual death. This in turn negates their fear of death.
Sorry, but you are incorrect, there is nothing more terrible to a person that ones death, you want to see yourself as a superwoman believing you can handle the fear. Like I told Chaz/Auk you are a mere individual, with practically no expertise in such matters, neither am I, the 25 year scientific study says otherwise, sorry you loose, as you have done no such study proving otherwise!

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by reasonvemotion » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:11 am

Quote:

You said you know there will be people who will mourn your death.

For everyone that knows love, this is true, I'm sorry, do you not know love?


What has love got to do with it?
If you do not understand, I feel sorry for you.

No I don't understand.
Please explain



Quote:

Is that important to you?

Is love important to you?


No.
Again I feel sorry for you, as it would seem that you're incapable of understanding. Though I think you're lying to me, as you'd have to love life in order to care about a hookers comment on not having any fresh fruit, so as to say it "breaks your heart?"

What if I was lying, what if I really thought, "dirty hookers, it's their own fault. No one forced them to take drugs, if I can say no, why cant they. So which answer is the lie. That is no basis for an argument, to assume another's real thoughts. What is infuriating about your posts, is you continually refuse to accept a person's view if it clashes with your own perception of how that person should think according to you.

Instead of feeling sorry for me, entertain my answers to allow them to register. You may find something there you agree with.


Now give me a response based on my answers to those questions, instead of your pity.

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Arising_uk
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Arising_uk » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:31 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Given CW says he's faced the reality of cancer I'd say he has a fair idea of what fear of death entails.
Supposition, as you do not know enough to make that call, as to it being fair, so as to actually know with certainty, but of course you can say anything you want.
What are you talking about? I tend to accept what people say on this forum as being true. So I believe CW when he says he's had cancer and treatment. As such he's had to face the very real possibility of death and dying, this I think would have given him a fair idea of what fear is involved in the idea of death and dying.

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Arising_uk
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Arising_uk » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:11 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:Yes and I am speaking of the knowing based upon a 25 year scientific study, while by comparison, you speak of a few isolated bits of belief, i.e., Chaz, monks, etc., which can only be seen as supposition, relatively speaking.
Not sure that Psychology can be called a science but lets say it is. What in this study contradicts the fact that many appear to be able to kill themselves or put themselves in deaths way which disproves your idea that what man fears most is death by the simple fact that some men appear not to. Now I agree that all have a healthy desire not to die but it appears over and over again that men will die if they think it necessary.
I disagree, why do you think there is quoting of 4 deep in the first place? If you are familiar with USENET, "News Groups," then you are aware that the depth is virtually infinitely deep. I see that you only think of yourself and no other readers.
Given the formats and fonts you use I think you're the last to talk. My way all one has to do is to scroll back to follow each thought. USENET! Where you been? The trouble with the quote function is that the four deep soon runs out and I got sick of the error message so I went this way.
That's not what you said, see "...culmination..." above. As to this clarification, I say, not according to the 25 year study. Everyone fears death, and everyone try's to cover it up.
Not quite as your study said that the religious appear not to. So quite a few more that do not fit your 'everyone'. I also note a citation needed in one of your quotes.
Yes, so as to somehow minimize the associated anxiety. But I see that in truth when you're actually realizing it, you'll see it much differently. Why do you think there is so much talk of PTSD for the soldiers of today? Because the horrors of death, for them, has finally become real. p
Makes you wonder how our grandfathers got through it. But I think it more the stress and tension of combat and killing, that and that they get pretty much no support on demob back into civil society and are ill-prepared for the change.
OK, you are consistent, you admit that stills 'appear' to you, to be justified true belief.
I admit that no-one can know whats in anothers mind and have to judge by their words and actions.
Not at all, I'm saying that your casual association, via the media, cannot compare to a 25 year scientific study.
It only needs one to make your assertion of all false.
How could there possibly be a disassociation when one is speaking of seemingly controlling something through meditation?
So now you appear to know whats going on in their minds? You're assuming that they have the fear. What if its that they don't thats why they can do what they do.
If one runs from something, does the something disappear?
Yes, if one runs fast enough.
Then why run?
To make the thing disappear.
[colour]As to fear there are only: fight, flight, or play possum, and in all these cases, the fear is acknowledged, so as to do so.
I know it as flight/fight/freeze and I don't think of the source as 'fear' as such, more the adrenal response and the rest how one responds to it.
"Fear is an emotion induced by a perceived threat which causes entities to quickly pull away from it and usually hide. It is a basic survival mechanism occurring in response to a specific stimulus, such as pain or the threat of danger. In short, fear is the ability to recognize danger leading to an urge to confront it or flee from it (also known as the fight-or-flight response) but in extreme cases of fear (horror and terror) a freeze or paralysis response is possible." --Wikipedia--
I agree but prefer 'adrenal response' to 'fear' as it gives opportunity to control and respond to it.

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Hjarloprillar
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Hjarloprillar » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:45 am

Some excellent points made here.. super chicken was bumped up 2 points.. he made most of the good points.

death .is easy
life is difficult.

then act

to quote

When your dead... such does not exist. nothing does.
what choices did you persue before you were born?

" death is not something you do.. it is the end of all doing."

"the grave is a fine and quiet place. And none i fear do there embrace"

death is forever.. an absolute. Humans cannot fit absolutes in head..making death less dead. and what is that.
[pit as achilles [the illiad. i see all the faces of those i have slain. They watch me across the stx]

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:36 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:
Quote:

You said you know there will be people who will mourn your death.

For everyone that knows love, this is true, I'm sorry, do you not know love?


What has love got to do with it?
If you do not understand, I feel sorry for you.

No I don't understand.
Please explain



Quote:

Is that important to you?

Is love important to you?


No.
Again I feel sorry for you, as it would seem that you're incapable of understanding. Though I think you're lying to me, as you'd have to love life in order to care about a hookers comment on not having any fresh fruit, so as to say it "breaks your heart?"

What if I was lying, what if I really thought, "dirty hookers, it's their own fault. No one forced them to take drugs, if I can say no, why cant they. So which answer is the lie. That is no basis for an argument, to assume another's real thoughts. What is infuriating about your posts, is you continually refuse to accept a person's view if it clashes with your own perception of how that person should think according to you.

Instead of feeling sorry for me, entertain my answers to allow them to register. You may find something there you agree with.


Now give me a response based on my answers to those questions, instead of your pity.
I refuse to argue with someone that acts stupid, for the sake of argument. I have more respect for your abilities than that.

But...

Obviously, increased fear is realized by the dying as they love those that rely upon then, understanding that their death creates a hole in the family's structure, which in some cases may lead to the survivors living in cardboard box's under expressway overpasses, panhandling for change. Would you say that this could increase fear? Of course, why else would love come into play? I am sorry if you have no family to speak of, truly!

TRUE FACT: A US NAVY aircraft ditched (landed in ocean) in the Bering Sea, all survived the ditch, but some succumbed to exposure (hypothermia), can you tell me what the survivors had in common, and what the dead had in common?








All the survivors had families back on shore, all the dead had none. When the survivors were asked what they were thinking about as they floated there freezing to death, all of them said, they were fearful of what would happen to their families, that depended on them so much, so they were thinking of how important it was for them to live, for their families sake.

And that's what love has to do with it! Love can actually cheat death, if the odds against aren't too great, but if one's death is certain, then it becomes the dead weight of fear and anxiety.

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