A Measure of Truth

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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Mark Question
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by Mark Question » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:38 am

Gee wrote:Mark Question;

Please consider the following:
Mark Question wrote: rationalization,critical thinking,and more methodologies are all part of Logical thinking.
If you go to Wiki and type in "Logical thinking", you will be referred to "Critical thinking", so maybe we are talking about the same thing -- just using different words. I have no problem with Critical thinking. My comments related to logic, pure logic, and it's failings.
Mark Question wrote:logically proven false is logical Truth.

But that "logical Truth" may not be true, if you do not have all of the facts. Consider that all people understand that one can not live life on a ball; the idea is ridiculous. One needs a flat surface to build a home, to plant a field, and to live life, so the idea that the Earth was a sphere was logically untrue -- besides, people on the bottom would fall off. So it was Logical truth that the Earth was flat.

Eventually we discovered that Earth was a huge sphere, so it appeared flat, and that gravity holds people onto Earth no matter where they live. This was also a Logical truth, but it was more true because it had more facts.
Mark Question wrote:how does one compare unknown is asking how does one compare unthinkable. your knowledge is your thinking.
Actually thinking can be guessing, or speculating, or imagining, or fantasizing, or a lot of other things -- it is not necessarily knowledge. Thinking can be right or wrong, it can be truth or lies, so when you compare two things that you are thinking about, you can come up with garbage if your thinking is not based on facts, truth, and/or knowledge.

Logic is only valid when dealing with facts or truths, is useless when dealing with the subjective mind of others, and is useless if the facts are misrepresented or missing. Consider that a computer works with logic, but if you put bad data into a computer, it will spit out the most ridiculous things. A computer is pure logic and has no ability to reason.

G
We Are not exactly speaking the same thing. We Are Both talking about different words.
like in Mathematic, Logic is All about Abstract relations. "Critical thinking" is basically Only Words with logical relations.
logical Truth is all about following logical rules. logical sentences are always logically true sentences.
unknown or unthinkable means there is no words and no logical relations. no logical truth.
bad data means data without logical relations. semantics are just another symbols with relations.

Mark Question
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by Mark Question » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:37 am

HexHammer wrote:
Mark Question wrote:Please show me the incoherence you found.
Mark Question wrote:Still, there is One absolute Truth and starting Point for Descartes and us All. Logical Truth.
- what is 1 absolute truth? ..never heard of any irl absolute truth, only in silly philosophy fora where they never ever gets to prove it, but talks about it 24/7.

- suddenly you speak of starting point for Descartes and us all ..how would that be a starting point if we in the first place doesn't know the absolute truth?

- what is logical truth? ..people with poor logic like rainmen or retards ..wouldn't understand it, infact it suggest you don't know much about intelligences and cognitive abilities.
You get logical truth when you use logic.
logic is absolute. logically true is logically true and logically false is logically false.
mathematician Descartes used same logical aproach in philosophy. He was seeking the premisses as logical starting points.
wittgenstein did the same and focused in Language.
We cant demand handicapped people the same as we expect from others.
blind is not good Photocrapher, i Ques.

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HexHammer
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by HexHammer » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:47 am

Mark Question wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
Mark Question wrote:Please show me the incoherence you found.
Mark Question wrote:Still, there is One absolute Truth and starting Point for Descartes and us All. Logical Truth.
- what is 1 absolute truth? ..never heard of any irl absolute truth, only in silly philosophy fora where they never ever gets to prove it, but talks about it 24/7.

- suddenly you speak of starting point for Descartes and us all ..how would that be a starting point if we in the first place doesn't know the absolute truth?

- what is logical truth? ..people with poor logic like rainmen or retards ..wouldn't understand it, infact it suggest you don't know much about intelligences and cognitive abilities.
You get logical truth when you use logic.
logic is absolute. logically true is logically true and logically false is logically false.
mathematician Descartes used same logical aproach in philosophy. He was seeking the premisses as logical starting points.
wittgenstein did the same and focused in Language.
We cant demand handicapped people the same as we expect from others.
blind is not good Photocrapher, i Ques.
..and "the One Absolute Truth"?
The problem with logical truths is that some things are relative and some very subjective why it's bad to use logic, and why computers can't condense life into equations.

What you say is purely theoretical and does not fit life in any way, only here in philosophy fora where you don't have to produce a real life result.

One may ask what kind of job one such as you have.

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The Voice of Time
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by The Voice of Time » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:14 pm

Gee wrote:
The Voice of Time wrote:"Historically, culturally, technically and paradigmatically defined specifications of knowing."
So knowledge is a true reflection of historic, cultural, technical, and paradigmatic specifications? I can work with that. (chuckle chuckle)

I think you like to argue with me.

G
Well, while I still don't like the word "reflection", you could presumably figure out aspects of the historic, the cultural, the technical and the paradigm of a specific situation in time and place by analysis of the use of the word "knowledge". But closer than that your comment does not come.

And of course I like arguing! Wouldn't be much of a philosopher without it, would I?

Mark Question
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by Mark Question » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:54 am

HexHammer wrote:..and "the One Absolute Truth"?
The problem with logical truths is that some things are relative and some very subjective why it's bad to use logic, and why computers can't condense life into equations.

What you say is purely theoretical and does not fit life in any way, only here in philosophy fora where you don't have to produce a real life result.

One may ask what kind of job one such as you have.
logic is the one. there is no relativity or subjectivity in logic. Surely we can have logical models of relativity and logical models of subjectivity. many kind of logical models. like gods and physical particles. Mathematical Formulas and weather forecasts. not so bad at all?

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HexHammer
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by HexHammer » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:35 pm

Mark Question wrote:
HexHammer wrote:..and "the One Absolute Truth"?
The problem with logical truths is that some things are relative and some very subjective why it's bad to use logic, and why computers can't condense life into equations.

What you say is purely theoretical and does not fit life in any way, only here in philosophy fora where you don't have to produce a real life result.

One may ask what kind of job one such as you have.
logic is the one. there is no relativity or subjectivity in logic. Surely we can have logical models of relativity and logical models of subjectivity. many kind of logical models. like gods and physical particles. Mathematical Formulas and weather forecasts. not so bad at all?
This describes nothing by itself, so can you give some examples from real life? ..where you apply some logic to great problems?

Mark Question
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by Mark Question » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:32 am

HexHammer wrote:
Mark Question wrote:
HexHammer wrote:..and "the One Absolute Truth"?
The problem with logical truths is that some things are relative and some very subjective why it's bad to use logic, and why computers can't condense life into equations.

What you say is purely theoretical and does not fit life in any way, only here in philosophy fora where you don't have to produce a real life result.

One may ask what kind of job one such as you have.
logic is the one. there is no relativity or subjectivity in logic. Surely we can have logical models of relativity and logical models of subjectivity. many kind of logical models. like gods and physical particles. Mathematical Formulas and weather forecasts. not so bad at all?
This describes nothing by itself, so can you give some examples from real life? ..where you apply some logic to great problems?
in real life or IRL :) You use logic when you count numbers or make rational sentences. using logical relations between numbers and words.

Seven one beer is seven Beers.

money problems are problems with money.

if alcohol is reason to money problems then money problems are alcohol problems.

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HexHammer
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by HexHammer » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:08 pm

Mark Question wrote:in real life or IRL :) You use logic when you count numbers or make rational sentences. using logical relations between numbers and words.

Seven one beer is seven Beers.

money problems are problems with money.

if alcohol is reason to money problems then money problems are alcohol problems.
Those are very sub fundemental things, you need to convince me with some greater solutions, not something one learn in 1st grade school.

Let's be honest here, you don't have the slightest idea where really it's used. It's broadly used in various professions, but at the same time it's open for grave mistakes as they do miscalculations because they havn't taken account for various things, as I said before things has subjective and relative values, hard to fit into math.

Mark Question
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by Mark Question » Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:33 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Mark Question wrote:in real life or IRL :) You use logic when you count numbers or make rational sentences. using logical relations between numbers and words.

Seven one beer is seven Beers.

money problems are problems with money.

if alcohol is reason to money problems then money problems are alcohol problems.
Those are very sub fundemental things, you need to convince me with some greater solutions, not something one learn in 1st grade school.

Let's be honest here, you don't have the slightest idea where really it's used. It's broadly used in various professions, but at the same time it's open for grave mistakes as they do miscalculations because they havn't taken account for various things, as I said before things has subjective and relative values, hard to fit into math.
basic Logic is behind every kind of logical thinking. higher logical solutions are based on basic logic too.

logical models are not absolutely accurate models. Models are pictures of something. Logical Models are absolutely logically true.

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HexHammer
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by HexHammer » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:14 pm

Mark Question wrote:basic Logic is behind every kind of logical thinking. higher logical solutions are based on basic logic too.

logical models are not absolutely accurate models. Models are pictures of something. Logical Models are absolutely logically true.
It's very obvious that you don't have a very highly paid job, and you speak straight out of your ass, without any real solid knowledge about how to apply this logical stuff, please spare me.

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The Voice of Time
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by The Voice of Time » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:25 pm

HexHammer wrote:It's very obvious that you don't have a very highly paid job... without any real solid knowledge about how to apply this logical stuff, please spare me.
Somebody has a macho-capitalist complex ^^

Mark Question
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by Mark Question » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:25 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Mark Question wrote:basic Logic is behind every kind of logical thinking. higher logical solutions are based on basic logic too.

logical models are not absolutely accurate models. Models are pictures of something. Logical Models are absolutely logically true.
It's very obvious that you don't have a very highly paid job, and you speak straight out of your ass, without any real solid knowledge about how to apply this logical stuff, please spare me.
i made tautologically true sentences.

can you logically have logical reasons to think that illogical thinking is logical thinking?

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HexHammer
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by HexHammer » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:21 pm

Mark Question wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
Mark Question wrote:basic Logic is behind every kind of logical thinking. higher logical solutions are based on basic logic too.

logical models are not absolutely accurate models. Models are pictures of something. Logical Models are absolutely logically true.
It's very obvious that you don't have a very highly paid job, and you speak straight out of your ass, without any real solid knowledge about how to apply this logical stuff, please spare me.
i made tautologically true sentences.

can you logically have logical reasons to think that illogical thinking is logical thinking?
Dude, there's a reason why I can identify that you don't have any big money making job, because what you say is something "rain men" would say that completely lacks sound reasoning! People without much rationallity can usually only do "parrot speeches" when they have to think just a tiiiny bit abstract they utterly fail.

Mark Question
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by Mark Question » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:43 am

HexHammer wrote:Dude, there's a reason why I can identify that you don't have any big money making job, because what you say is something "rain men" would say that completely lacks sound reasoning! People without much rationallity can usually only do "parrot speeches" when they have to think just a tiiiny bit abstract they utterly fail.
talking about money is not logical argument if it is not logical.
sound reasoning needs sound logic. sound logic is based on sound basic logic. tautologies are sound basic logic. In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula which is true in every possible interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)

logical models in science or logical models for making big money are just logical models. logical models are not absolutely accurate or true. models are models like finger pointing to the moon is just a finger, not the moon. not even close. logic itself is absolutely logical and absolutely logically true.

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HexHammer
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Re: A Measure of Truth

Post by HexHammer » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:35 pm

Mark Question wrote:
HexHammer wrote:Dude, there's a reason why I can identify that you don't have any big money making job, because what you say is something "rain men" would say that completely lacks sound reasoning! People without much rationallity can usually only do "parrot speeches" when they have to think just a tiiiny bit abstract they utterly fail.
talking about money is not logical argument if it is not logical.
sound reasoning needs sound logic. sound logic is based on sound basic logic. tautologies are sound basic logic. In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula which is true in every possible interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)

logical models in science or logical models for making big money are just logical models. logical models are not absolutely accurate or true. models are models like finger pointing to the moon is just a finger, not the moon. not even close. logic itself is absolutely logical and absolutely logically true.
Computers think in logical terms, yet they can't thnk abstract. If logic was all we need to think, we could just replace expensive directors and CEO with inexpensive computers.

The big difference between computers and humans ability to think abstract is "rationallity".

There's a good statistical correlation between ones intellect and rationallity and ones job, the higher one usually is placed in a big buisness the smarter the person is.
Sure some in lowly jobs can indeed have areas of intellect that surpasses highly paid people.

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