Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:59 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:46 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:07 pm

Highly relevant since all knowledge is apprehended by the subject.

It's worth stepping aside for a moment to reflect that we may have knoweldge in the form of pure sensation, or praxis. Knowing where the keys on a piano or the instinctive bodily knoweldge of the feel of a car and the feedback from peddles and stirring wheel we cal take for granted. Etc. Such knowledge may be demonstrable, but langauge is usually relied upon to make sense of that knoweldge to others.

All knoweldge not of this kinetic/bodily kind has to be tranlated from the objective world and filtered through the categories of langauge. Since such structures and categories are predefined by our lived experience and previous knoweldge, knowledge that it purely NEW tends to be seen in relationship to what we already know, or think we know. New knoweldge is only apprehended in view of how it compares to what we already know. This can be problematic.
That doesn't make sense to me. What exactly is the relevance? Can you spell it out?
1. the objective world is not fundementally linguistic.
2. Knowledge about the world is understood in two ways. a) non linguistc knowledge, and b) linguistic knowledge.
3, non linguistic knowledgesuch things as muscle memory, imagery, practical.
4. linguistic knoweldge is textual, representative

ONLY representative. Categories and representations called words and grammar ar different from reality. Words are necessarily reductive. They are different specrums of meaning between people's differing experiences and uses of those words.
Words are connotative as well as denotative. Descriptions of reality are therefore ALWAYS approximations. Descriptions of reality are ALWAYS open to interpretation and misinterpretations.
THe more we live the more we construct a world view, and all new information is modified to accomodate what we expect. Children are better at new stuff, since their world views are still under construction and new stuff is more likely to modify the view rather than the view resisting change as happens with older people.

A world view constructed of abstractions - ask yourself how close to reality could it be??
This is why the difference between knowledge and reality is problematic.
I'll stop here.
Is this making any sense yet?
Knowledge is not identical to what it's knowledge about. Yeah, and? How would that be news to anyone?

The reason that we'd be expecting knowledge to be identical to what it's knowledge about, or the reason that it would be a problem that knowledge isn't identical to what knowledge is about is?
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Sculptor
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Sculptor »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:23 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:59 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:46 pm

That doesn't make sense to me. What exactly is the relevance? Can you spell it out?
1. the objective world is not fundementally linguistic.
2. Knowledge about the world is understood in two ways. a) non linguistc knowledge, and b) linguistic knowledge.
3, non linguistic knowledgesuch things as muscle memory, imagery, practical.
4. linguistic knoweldge is textual, representative

ONLY representative. Categories and representations called words and grammar ar different from reality. Words are necessarily reductive. They are different specrums of meaning between people's differing experiences and uses of those words.
Words are connotative as well as denotative. Descriptions of reality are therefore ALWAYS approximations. Descriptions of reality are ALWAYS open to interpretation and misinterpretations.
THe more we live the more we construct a world view, and all new information is modified to accomodate what we expect. Children are better at new stuff, since their world views are still under construction and new stuff is more likely to modify the view rather than the view resisting change as happens with older people.

A world view constructed of abstractions - ask yourself how close to reality could it be??
This is why the difference between knowledge and reality is problematic.
I'll stop here.
Is this making any sense yet?
Knowledge is not identical to what it's knowledge about. Yeah, and? How would that be news to anyone?
If you do not want to discuss that finer aspects of it, then why contribute to a thread about knowledge?
Actually, don't answer, just fuck off.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:33 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:23 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:59 pm

1. the objective world is not fundementally linguistic.
2. Knowledge about the world is understood in two ways. a) non linguistc knowledge, and b) linguistic knowledge.
3, non linguistic knowledgesuch things as muscle memory, imagery, practical.
4. linguistic knoweldge is textual, representative

ONLY representative. Categories and representations called words and grammar ar different from reality. Words are necessarily reductive. They are different specrums of meaning between people's differing experiences and uses of those words.
Words are connotative as well as denotative. Descriptions of reality are therefore ALWAYS approximations. Descriptions of reality are ALWAYS open to interpretation and misinterpretations.
THe more we live the more we construct a world view, and all new information is modified to accomodate what we expect. Children are better at new stuff, since their world views are still under construction and new stuff is more likely to modify the view rather than the view resisting change as happens with older people.

A world view constructed of abstractions - ask yourself how close to reality could it be??
This is why the difference between knowledge and reality is problematic.
I'll stop here.
Is this making any sense yet?
Knowledge is not identical to what it's knowledge about. Yeah, and? How would that be news to anyone?
If you do not want to discuss that finer aspects of it, then why contribute to a thread about knowledge?
Actually, don't answer, just fuck off.
This is why I asked Peter this earlier: "what would knowledge be on your view if not some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things?"

Some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things is obviously not going to be IDENTICAL to just the other things. So the fact that it's not identical to the other things (where the other things aren't language) is hardly a cogent point about knowledge. No one should expect knowledge to be identical to the other things. They'd have a very, very weird misunderstanding of what knowledge is if they're expecting that.
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Sculptor
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Sculptor »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:33 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:23 pm

Knowledge is not identical to what it's knowledge about. Yeah, and? How would that be news to anyone?
If you do not want to discuss that finer aspects of it, then why contribute to a thread about knowledge?
Actually, don't answer, just fuck off.
This is why I asked Peter this earlier: "what would knowledge be on your view if not some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things?"

Some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things is obviously not going to be IDENTICAL to just the other things. So the fact that it's not identical to the other things (where the other things aren't language) is hardly a cogent point about knowledge. No one should expect knowledge to be identical to the other things. They'd have a very, very weird misunderstanding of what knowledge is if they're expecting that.
I'll respond to your need when you take it what I actually said above.
Why would I bother else, you discared what I was saying to you?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:46 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:33 pm

If you do not want to discuss that finer aspects of it, then why contribute to a thread about knowledge?
Actually, don't answer, just fuck off.
This is why I asked Peter this earlier: "what would knowledge be on your view if not some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things?"

Some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things is obviously not going to be IDENTICAL to just the other things. So the fact that it's not identical to the other things (where the other things aren't language) is hardly a cogent point about knowledge. No one should expect knowledge to be identical to the other things. They'd have a very, very weird misunderstanding of what knowledge is if they're expecting that.
I'll respond to your need when you take it what I actually said above.
Why would I bother else, you discared what I was saying to you?
My need?
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Sculptor
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Sculptor »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:46 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:49 pm

This is why I asked Peter this earlier: "what would knowledge be on your view if not some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things?"

Some sort of interaction/relationship between people and other things is obviously not going to be IDENTICAL to just the other things. So the fact that it's not identical to the other things (where the other things aren't language) is hardly a cogent point about knowledge. No one should expect knowledge to be identical to the other things. They'd have a very, very weird misunderstanding of what knowledge is if they're expecting that.
I'll respond to your need when you take it what I actually said above.
Why would I bother else, you discared what I was saying to you?
My need?
Okay want
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:46 am
I'll respond to your need when you take it what I actually said above.
Why would I bother else, you discared what I was saying to you?
My need?
Okay want
It was just an explanation.
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Sculptor
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Sculptor »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:35 pm

My need?
Okay want
It was just an explanation.
Which you flipped off..
THe more we live the more we construct a world view, and all new information is modified to accomodate what we expect. Children are better at new stuff, since their world views are still under construction and new stuff is more likely to modify the view rather than the view resisting change as happens with older people.

A world view constructed of abstractions - ask yourself how close to reality could it be??
This is why the difference between knowledge and reality is problematic.
I'll stop here.
Is this making any sense yet?


I do not think any of this is making any sense to you.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:29 pm A world view constructed of abstractions - ask yourself how close to reality could it be??
The problem here is the question "How close to reality could it be."

How would we quantify something like "how close to reality" language versus something else might be?

And if we can't quantify it, how does it make sense to ask a question like that?

Obviously knowledge and what the knowledge is about are not identical. No one should expect them to be. That's not at all the idea. So critiquing knowledge on the grounds that it's not the same as what it's knowledge about is a pretty Homer Simpsonish/Emily Litellaish move. It amounts to saying that there's something wrong with x for not being F, when x never even neared purporting to be F in the first place. It's like criticizing an automobile tire for not being a very good river. Why would anyone expect it to be a river in the first place? How could someone so misunderstand what automobile tires are?

So no one should have ever had a notion that knowledge was supposed to be identical to what it's knowledge about in the first place. Hence, noting that it's not the same as what it's knowledge about, that language, beliefs, etc. are not the same as rocks or whatever, seems rather dim.
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Sculptor »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:40 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:29 pm A world view constructed of abstractions - ask yourself how close to reality could it be??
The problem here is the question "How close to reality could it be."

How would we quantify something like "how close to reality" language versus something else might be?

And if we can't quantify it, how does it make sense to ask a question like that?

Obviously knowledge and what the knowledge is about are not identical. No one should expect them to be. That's not at all the idea. So critiquing knowledge on the grounds that it's not the same as what it's knowledge about is a pretty Homer Simpsonish/Emily Litellaish move.PLONK......
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Peter Holmes »

If I may - a sidebar...

Any claim that begins 'Knowledge is...' can only ever be a description of the way(s) we use, or could use, the word 'knowledge', its cognates, such as 'know', and related words, such as 'ignorance'.

And that's it. Those are the only facts of the matter. And those facts - about linguistic practice - are out in the open.

If anyone thinks what we call knowledge is a thing of some kind that exists somewhere, somehow, that can be described objectively - please produce evidence for the existence of such a thing. Let's wait with unbated breath.
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