IF the universe was created THEN...

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Immanuel Can
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:37 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:31 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:17 pm Machines cannot know their creators.
A machine doesn't actually "know" anything.

We do.
No, the 'we' is known, and that which is known, know nothing.
I'm remembering now: you said you write a bunch of stuff that you don't believe. So I'm going to get out of the way and let you do that.
Dontaskme
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:40 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:37 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:31 pm
A machine doesn't actually "know" anything.

We do.
No, the 'we' is known, and that which is known, know nothing.
I'm remembering now: you said you write a bunch of stuff that you don't believe. So I'm going to get out of the way and let you do that.
That's a good idea, to get out of your own way, you do not have to show up to your own show.

Else you be tripping again :wink:

I do not know anything, except what I make up, create. I am the uncreated creator. Only created things have a creator, in the dream of separation.
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 pm
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:17 pm What I actually said was I don't have the kind of evidence that one can show the others. I did not say that I have not experienced the evidence for myself.
Ah. So you claim that you have seen reality as it actually is, and it's not this -- this is a "simulated" reality?

So you have been "red pilled," and actually seen and been outside the Matrix, like a Neo.

But nobody else has?
If we live in a simulation of reality, then our reality is that simulation. None of us can be a Neo.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:31 pm If we live in a simulation of reality, then our reality is that simulation.
The problem with that claim is that a "simulation" is always a "simulation-of" something. So even to use the word "simulation" implies the existence of something "not-the-simulation," but which the simulation "simulates."

So if we live in a reality, that reality is not the simulation. But if we live in a simulation, then it's a simulation of the real reality.

The upshot: either way, reality has to exist.
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:56 am
There is no definition of the word hallucination which you have offerred as argument that my experiences fit that definition.
I’m not sure about any semantics, but it seems to me you have stated that, by any definition of the word, you have never experienced hallucinations.

I suppose you have had hallucinations but could not recognize them. How can you be sure that you’re not having one now?
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 pm But how did you decide that what you saw was the real reality?
I suppose I never make that decision. I operate conditionally on the premise that what I experience might be the real reality.
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:45 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:31 pm If we live in a simulation of reality, then our reality is that simulation.
The problem with that claim is that a "simulation" is always a "simulation-of" something. So even to use the word "simulation" implies the existence of something "not-the-simulation," but which the simulation "simulates."

So if we live in a reality, that reality is not the simulation. But if we live in a simulation, then it's a simulation of the real reality.

The upshot: either way, reality has to exist.
Agreed.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:45 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:31 pm If we live in a simulation of reality, then our reality is that simulation.
The problem with that claim is that a "simulation" is always a "simulation-of" something. So even to use the word "simulation" implies the existence of something "not-the-simulation," but which the simulation "simulates."

So if we live in a reality, that reality is not the simulation. But if we live in a simulation, then it's a simulation of the real reality.

The upshot: either way, reality has to exist.
Agreed.
Great.

And if you look back, that's the issue VVilliam and I were arguing about. He seems to think there's such a thing as a "simulation" that isn't a "simulation-of" anything. And I don't think he even saw the necessity of a "simulation" simulating something.

But if Neo is in the Matrix, but there's nothing OUTSIDE the Matrix, then all there is is the Matrix, and the Matrix is the real reality. It's no longer a "simulation" of anything. The Matrix is as good as it ever gets or could get, and there's no basis for complaining about the Matrix anymore...it's then the only "reality" we have. :shock:

So then it's a totally moot point. And it's no longer reasonable, or even interesting, to complain about the Matrix. It would then be all we ever get.
Age
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:37 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:31 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:17 pm Machines cannot know their creators.
A machine doesn't actually "know" anything.

We do.
No, the 'we' is known, and that which is known, know nothing.
If the 'we' is known, then who and/or what is the 'we'?

Also, are you here suggesting that 'you', human beings, know nothing?
Age
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Age »

For those who question if we live/exist within a simulation or within a reality, then do you realize that if a simulation could be created, in which 'we' or 'anything' lives or exists in, then that would have to have occurred in 'Reality', Itself? And it does NOT matter how many simulations there are.

So, it does NOT matter if 'we' or 'anything' lives/exists within a simulation, this "simulation" is OBVIOUSLY within Reality, Itself.

Therefore, there is NO escaping the FACT that we are living and existing within Reality, Itself.

End of story.

But if ANY one thinks or BELIEVES that they can refute this, then please go ahead and do it.
Dontaskme
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:06 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:37 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:31 pm
A machine doesn't actually "know" anything.

We do.
No, the 'we' is known, and that which is known, know nothing.
If the 'we' is known, then who and/or what is the 'we'?

Also, are you here suggesting that 'you', human beings, know nothing?
I'm suggesting that ALL concepts ( which is another word for 'idea' ) are known.

The word ''knower'' is an idea too.

The ''knower'' is not a conceptual thing/object that can be SEEN. An idea cannot SEE an idea. An idea is only known.
Age
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:31 pm
Age wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:06 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:37 pm

No, the 'we' is known, and that which is known, know nothing.
If the 'we' is known, then who and/or what is the 'we'?

Also, are you here suggesting that 'you', human beings, know nothing?
I'm suggesting that ALL concepts ( which is another word for 'idea' ) are known.

The word ''knower'' is an idea too.
Is EVERY word an idea, to you?
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:31 pm The ''knower'' is not a conceptual thing/object that can be SEEN.
Is your use of the 'conceptual' word here correct?

Could you have said your sentence without the 'conceptual' word here?

SEE, from my perspective, the knower is not a thing/object that can be SEEN with the physical eyes. But 'it' can be SEEN with the Mind's Eye.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:31 pm An idea cannot SEE an idea. An idea is only known.
But, as far as I am aware it is only 'you', "dontaskme", who thinks or believes and claims that the actual 'knower' is just an idea only.

Most, I find, think that the knower is more than just an idea and is, in fact, an actual thing or object.

And, if the knower is only an idea, then who and/or what is the one who this idea exists within, and thus 'knows' of?
Dontaskme
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pm
Is EVERY word an idea, to you?
The word ''you'' is an idea.


Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pmBut, as far as I am aware it is only 'you', "dontaskme", who thinks or believes and claims that the actual 'knower' is just an idea only.
All labels are concepts which are ideas.
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pmMost, I find, think that the knower is more than just an idea and is, in fact, an actual thing or object.
Things and objects are conceptually known, and that which is known (ideas) know nothing.
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pmAnd, if the knower is only an idea, then who and/or what is the one who this idea exists within, and thus 'knows' of?
What is the exact location of an idea you ask...?

..I've no idea.
Age
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:42 pm
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pm
Is EVERY word an idea, to you?
The word ''you'' is an idea.
The word 'you' is an idea about 'what', EXACTLY?

A REAL 'thing' or some 'thing' else?
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:42 pm
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pmBut, as far as I am aware it is only 'you', "dontaskme", who thinks or believes and claims that the actual 'knower' is just an idea only.
All labels are concepts which are ideas.
This may be 100% True and Correct, but this does NOT take away from the FACT that some labels point to, refers to, or are of actual things. For example, the word 'knower' refers to some ACTUAL 'thing', correct?
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:42 pm
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pmMost, I find, think that the knower is more than just an idea and is, in fact, an actual thing or object.
Things and objects are conceptually known, and that which is known (ideas) know nothing.
'you' can REALLY twist and distort 'things'.

OF COURSE 'things' and 'objects' are conceptually known. This is HOW 'knowing' works. 'Knowing' is in the mental state, which is also known as, and literally by, 'concepts'.

So, 'things' and 'objects' are conceptually known, but this does NOT take away from the FACT that some of these 'things' and 'objects' are REAL and ACTUAL things.

Also, I have tried to clarify with you previously about if 'human beings' are known, and if so, then whether you think or believe that 'human beings' can either know things or not know things.

I await your clarity.
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:42 pm
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pmAnd, if the knower is only an idea, then who and/or what is the one who this idea exists within, and thus 'knows' of?
What is the exact location of an idea you ask...?

..I've no idea.
NO, I am NOT asking that at all.

As ALL ideas exist within a mental construct, concepts or conceptual framework, or thoughts and thinking. This was ALREADY KNOWN.

Also, I suggest you CLARIFY before you even begin to ASSUME ANY thing. That way you will NOT be answering questions that were NEVER even asked.
Dontaskme
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:49 pm The word 'you' is an idea about 'what', EXACTLY?
YOU
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:49 pmThis may be 100% True and Correct, but this does NOT take away from the FACT that some labels point to, refers to, or are of actual things. For example, the word 'knower' refers to some ACTUAL 'thing', correct?
The word ''knower'' is an idea. An idea is known, and that which is known, know nothing.

Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pm
'you' can REALLY twist and distort 'things'.
Conceptual 'ideas' do not distort, they simply are as they are known, and that which is known, know nothing.
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:49 pmOF COURSE 'things' and 'objects' are conceptually known. This is HOW 'knowing' works. 'Knowing' is in the mental state, which is also known as, and literally by, 'concepts'.

So, 'things' and 'objects' are conceptually known, but this does NOT take away from the FACT that some of these 'things' and 'objects' are REAL and ACTUAL things.
The words 'Real' and 'Actual' are concepts known, and that which is known, know nothing.
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:49 pmAlso, I have tried to clarify with you previously about if 'human beings' are known, and if so, then whether you think or believe that 'human beings' can either know things or not know things.

I await your clarity.
All known concepts do not know anything, and thankfully they don't have to know, for they are already the 'knowing' that cannot be known.

Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:07 pmAnd, if the knower is only an idea, then who and/or what is the one who this idea exists within, and thus 'knows' of?
The 'who' and the 'what' and the 'one' ..and the 'within' and without' are all inclusive of concepts known, and that which is known, known nothing.
Age wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:49 pmNO, I am NOT asking that at all.

As ALL ideas exist within a mental construct, concepts or conceptual framework, or thoughts and thinking. This was ALREADY KNOWN.

Also, I suggest you CLARIFY before you even begin to ASSUME ANY thing. That way you will NOT be answering questions that were NEVER even asked.
'Mental contruct' is another idea.

What is an idea...I've no idea.
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