Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

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Dubious
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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by Dubious » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:17 am

"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering". ~ Buddha

Well, that was easy! But I wonder how useful that sentiment is when your starving to death, slowly consumed by a plague, burned alive or in the process of being drawn and quartered. I have a feeling the Buddha wouldn't have been quite as nonchalant about the illusion had he experienced any of this.

If this is supposed to be wisdom it's as unfathomable as Donald Trump dedicating a few hours as President serving the poor at the local Salvation Army. Most oriental wisdom, not all, amounts to nothing more than a mountain load of crap.

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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by -1- » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:05 am

Dubious wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:17 am
"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering". ~ Buddha

Well, that was easy! But I wonder how useful that sentiment is when your starving to death, slowly consumed by a plague, burned alive or in the process of being drawn and quartered. I have a feeling the Buddha wouldn't have been quite as nonchalant about the illusion had he experienced any of this.

If this is supposed to be wisdom it's as unfathomable as Donald Trump dedicating a few hours as President serving the poor at the local Salvation Army. Most oriental wisdom, not all, amounts to nothing more than a mountain load of crap.
Well, dubiouis, if you were quartered or whipped or something, and suffered, maybe you just act as if it were real, and therefore you suffer.

It is important to see which way is the donkey and which way is the cart.

I, personally, am very much an illused person. I take every instance of suffering for real.

But that does not mean that I'm right. It just means that I can't recognize that the world is an illusion.

It's like the wisdom in the "Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy": you can fly like a bird, and not hit ground like a sack full of stones, if you can just forget hitting the ground and forget the fear of hitting the ground on your way down from somewhere. It is an important discovery, and I think some of us should be nominated to carry out the experiment.

Dubious
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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by Dubious » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:46 am

-1- wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:05 am
Dubious wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:17 am
"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering". ~ Buddha

Well, that was easy! But I wonder how useful that sentiment is when your starving to death, slowly consumed by a plague, burned alive or in the process of being drawn and quartered. I have a feeling the Buddha wouldn't have been quite as nonchalant about the illusion had he experienced any of this.

If this is supposed to be wisdom it's as unfathomable as Donald Trump dedicating a few hours as President serving the poor at the local Salvation Army. Most oriental wisdom, not all, amounts to nothing more than a mountain load of crap.
Well, dubiouis, if you were quartered or whipped or something, and suffered, maybe you just act as if it were real, and therefore you suffer.

It is important to see which way is the donkey and which way is the cart.

I, personally, am very much an illused person. I take every instance of suffering for real.

But that does not mean that I'm right. It just means that I can't recognize that the world is an illusion.

It's like the wisdom in the "Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy": you can fly like a bird, and not hit ground like a sack full of stones, if you can just forget hitting the ground and forget the fear of hitting the ground on your way down from somewhere. It is an important discovery, and I think some of us should be nominated to carry out the experiment.
The quote: "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering". ~ Buddha was given by Nick who, as we all know, loves to quote.

It seems you misunderstood my intent. I don't believe in the world as illusion either and never did. Even if it is, how would I or anyone know the difference and what difference would that make to real suffering? The experience remains whether assumed real or not! That's one reason why I consider most of "Eastern Wisdom" as pure unpolluted malarkey. Many "impressionable" westerners regard Eastern wisdom as so much superior when it's nothing of the kind. The Buddha talking himself into believing that the world is an illusion is in no way an anodyne against pain mental or physical and that's the reason I wrote what I wrote.

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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by -1- » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:25 am

Dubious wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:46 am
-1- wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:05 am
Dubious wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:17 am
"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering". ~ Buddha

Well, that was easy! But I wonder how useful that sentiment is when your starving to death, slowly consumed by a plague, burned alive or in the process of being drawn and quartered. I have a feeling the Buddha wouldn't have been quite as nonchalant about the illusion had he experienced any of this.

If this is supposed to be wisdom it's as unfathomable as Donald Trump dedicating a few hours as President serving the poor at the local Salvation Army. Most oriental wisdom, not all, amounts to nothing more than a mountain load of crap.
Well, dubiouis, if you were quartered or whipped or something, and suffered, maybe you just act as if it were real, and therefore you suffer.

It is important to see which way is the donkey and which way is the cart.

I, personally, am very much an illused person. I take every instance of suffering for real.

But that does not mean that I'm right. It just means that I can't recognize that the world is an illusion.

It's like the wisdom in the "Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy": you can fly like a bird, and not hit ground like a sack full of stones, if you can just forget hitting the ground and forget the fear of hitting the ground on your way down from somewhere. It is an important discovery, and I think some of us should be nominated to carry out the experiment.
The quote: "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering". ~ Buddha was given by Nick who, as we all know, loves to quote.

It seems you misunderstood my intent. I don't believe in the world as illusion either and never did. Even if it is, how would I or anyone know the difference and what difference would that make to real suffering? The experience remains whether assumed real or not! That's one reason why I consider most of "Eastern Wisdom" as pure unpolluted malarkey. Many "impressionable" westerners regard Eastern wisdom as so much superior when it's nothing of the kind. The Buddha talking himself into believing that the world is an illusion is in no way an anodyne against pain mental or physical and that's the reason I wrote what I wrote.
Erm... my reply was a joke. A sarcasm pointed at Nick_A, his quotes and his beliefs.

Sorry to have caused a confusion.

Yes, I understand that my sense of humour often needs a hands-on translator.

osgart
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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by osgart » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:26 am

To debate is to refute that which is not justifiable. It's useful for more black and white arguments.

A dialectic must compel, and is far more worthy an endeavour. When someone is literally trying to understand another, more fruitful things happen.

Debate breeds conflict, and a false sense of superiority. It's more show than go.

I really don't think anyone yet has a monopoly on logic. Nothing is logical til it becomes evident, by being highly functional.

I'm sure reality has plenty of qualities that are not logical. I say logic is a construct of the human mind, invented for survival. Logic only works with that which is knowable, and of use. There is plenty of reality outside of what is knowable. I vote Socratic ignorance.

Dontaskme
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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:29 am

Dubious wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:17 am
"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering". ~ Buddha

Well, that was easy! But I wonder how useful that sentiment is when your starving to death, slowly consumed by a plague, burned alive or in the process of being drawn and quartered. I have a feeling the Buddha wouldn't have been quite as nonchalant about the illusion had he experienced any of this.
Lets not confuse the inevitable pain that is part of being alive with suffering. Pain is unavoidable, but the suffering of that pain is optional. Life is able to endure pain, if you are a woman in labour giving birth to a child naturally you would know that to be true. You are built to endure pain, the will to survive is stronger than any pain, if nature had not given us the capacity to endure pain then we'd have all been committing suicide in the attempt to escape our so called unavoidable intolerable lives, our lives would be nothing more than a living hell. And think of all the heroic attempts by humans to overcome against all odds their terrible ordeals because the survival instinct is so strong, like being ripped apart by a lion, or mangled in a car crash etc...Yes, some parts of the world are a living hell, but is this because of bad management I do not know. And then what about the animal kingdom, think about the extreme hardships they have to endure every moment of their lives, and yet they seem to pull it off quite gracefully.

And lets not forget about all the pleasures that are part of life's experience. There's no one without the other. There is no chooser choosing to be born into this world, it's all happening to no one, so there is no point in trying to control it or expect it to be any different. Might as well surrender to it, we're born and we all die, no one wins the game of survivor.

The Buddha nature is the fundamental wise side of intelligent consciousness, it's the consciousness that is able to transcend the suffering of being alive. Animals do this naturally because they have no sense of a ''separate self'' or that life is happening to them personally in the way humans do. Life and what happens is not personal.

.

Also remember there is no way out as far as we know, life will keep on happening over and over again, but the good news is that pain is always temporary, life maybe forever, but pain isn't.

.

Also, if we were that bothered about suffering we would stop having children. Can you imagine that happening Dubious? Do you honestly love your children enough not to have them in the first place?

.

Everything alive is already rotting and decaying toward death, everything is living and dying simultaneously, and no, there is no way out.

.

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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by -1- » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:38 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Pain is unavoidable, but the suffering of that pain is optional.
I don't think pain is separable from suffering. Or the other way around. When pain happens, you suffer. That is not optional or negotiable.

I really don't see how you mean the quote, Dontaskme. But unfortunately I can't ask you how you meant it.

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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by -1- » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:46 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Also remember there is no way out as far as we know, life will keep on happening over and over again,
This is faith-based not a fact. You ought not to present it as a fact. You must present it as a possibility or as a part of a faith-based system, such as a religion or Buddhism.

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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by -1- » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Also remember there is no way out as far as we know, life will keep on happening over and over again,
WE actually don't know as far as that. A whole bunch of other faiths accept that there is an out. And a whole bunch of other faiths also claim there is no way out, but not via reincarnation.

In fact, nobody knows, near or far. Your claim is invalid.

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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by -1- » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:52 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
There is no chooser choosing to be born into this world, it's all happening to no one,
We also don't know that. Maybe we get to be born in this world not via a lottery, but via a system of earning our place here. I am not saying this is a fact, or a knowledge; I am saying it is equally as possible as your idea, Dontaskme. You seem to have accepted some faith as knowledge, and that is not good.

Dontaskme
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Re: Socratic Ignorance vs Secular Intelligence

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:10 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:52 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
There is no chooser choosing to be born into this world, it's all happening to no one,
We also don't know that. Maybe we get to be born in this world not via a lottery, but via a system of earning our place here. I am not saying this is a fact, or a knowledge; I am saying it is equally as possible as your idea, Dontaskme. You seem to have accepted some faith as knowledge, and that is not good.
We are entitled to our own ideas, they are after all only ideas. We're all playing with ideas.

The one to whom ideas arise is also faith based, we have actually no real idea who we are or what an idea is. We're just playing around with them sharing them with ourselves.

Nothing is either good or not good, what is that except an idea..where is any idea in deep dreamless sleep?

The I can only know what it does not know.

.

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