An argument for the existence of God

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ForgedinHell
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:46 am

RIW wrote:The mathematical evidence of our universe points to a set of values that are so précis that they have been set by something. Or we live in a multivers . there is no observation that has been made other than need to explaining the preciseness of these values without them having been set by something.
That's not true. First, the vast majority of the universe is hostile to life, and the universe is slated for eventual death. Second, life that does exist merely adapted to what exists. Third, more than likely the multiverse does exist, which completely wipes out any such claim, our version of the universe would simply have to exist.

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ForgedinHell
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:48 am

thedoc wrote:Infinity is a mathametical concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe since neither is infinite.

In a like manner eternity is a religious concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe, only with God.
Nothing to do with reality? LOL. You have no idea how foolish you are. Without the concept of infinity, your speedometer would not work, unless you traveled at a constant speed. How do you think an instantaneous speed is calculated, for a variable speed? One must use the concept of infinity.

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Bernard
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by Bernard » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:58 am

ForgedinHell wrote: Some infinities are simply larger than others.

This is nothing but a phrase that exists only because it supports a conceptual description of reality based on a hierarchy of utility peculiar to that conceptual framework that has no basis when isolated from that framework. It is as ridiculous as a religion that acknowledges the existence of the God of other religions but which regards its own God as the larger, or largest, of them all.

But, whatever gets you thru the night I guess.

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John
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by John » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:40 am

ForgedinHell wrote:
thedoc wrote:Infinity is a mathametical concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe since neither is infinite.

In a like manner eternity is a religious concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe, only with God.
Nothing to do with reality? LOL. You have no idea how foolish you are. Without the concept of infinity, your speedometer would not work, unless you traveled at a constant speed. How do you think an instantaneous speed is calculated, for a variable speed? One must use the concept of infinity.
I interpreted thedoc to mean that infinity was a mathematical concept but nothing was infinite in reality. I further assumed that he really meant that nothing physical was infinite in reality (so he wasn't claiming that there isn't an infinite sequence of numbers for example). From this I infer that we can deduce things about the physical nature of reality, such as what speed I'm travelling at to use your example, by employing the concept of infinity.

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Bernard
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by Bernard » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:23 pm

ForgedinHell wrote: Why is being is unanswerable? Someone forgot to tell that to the physics community.
I guess it wasn't necessary as they are not much concerned with philosophy.

You see, to explain being as a a physical phenomenon, and the result only of physical forces, does not cut it with philosophy because philosophy has not traditionally confined itself to physical explanations, or to science in general. Science is itself a more encompassing term than physics. Physics is a branch of science - why do so many physicists seem to forget that? There has been a huge push on to disallow any science that doesn't deal exclusively with a physical description of the world and of how it works. Its almost as if science is becoming a branch of physics. It won't last.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:01 pm

John wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote:
thedoc wrote:Infinity is a mathametical concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe since neither is infinite.

In a like manner eternity is a religious concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe, only with God.
Nothing to do with reality? LOL. You have no idea how foolish you are. Without the concept of infinity, your speedometer would not work, unless you traveled at a constant speed. How do you think an instantaneous speed is calculated, for a variable speed? One must use the concept of infinity.
I interpreted thedoc to mean that infinity was a mathematical concept but nothing was infinite in reality. I further assumed that he really meant that nothing physical was infinite in reality (so he wasn't claiming that there isn't an infinite sequence of numbers for example). From this I infer that we can deduce things about the physical nature of reality, such as what speed I'm travelling at to use your example, by employing the concept of infinity.

Thankyou, but I would also add that it seems that in the physical world, the concept of infinity is not necessary, since the physical world does not break down into an infinite scale of energy or matter. This is the basis for quantum theory that at the smallest levels everything is composed of quanta of energy, mass, and time, so there are measurable jumps from one state to another. If infinity were the rule, there would be an infinite number os stages for everything to go through. But, for example, electrons can only occupy specific levels of energy within an atom and do not exist in the states between. Those intermediate states exist only in theory, not in reality, because no electron is ever at that state. It seems that reality has a sort of grainieness that is in opposition to infinity.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by reasonvemotion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:12 am


The expansion of the universe also gives a clue, if everything is moving apart, reverse time and everything comes together. It seems Einstein's theory predicted an expanding universe, but he didn't like the idea, so introduced a factor into the equations to make the universe stand still. Later when visiting Hubble he described as his biggest blunder.

It also seems that atoms structure gives clues to the Big Bang but I must admit that I have not personally examined this evidence, or any of the others, I don't have the proper equipment. No particle accelerator, no microwave antenna, and I have not checked Einstein's math for errors.
Rather a half hearted post, but I guess you have been asked the same question over and over.

It is interesting to read John Ashton, Ph.D. on evolution and his theory of the creator v evolution. It is promoted countless times that evolution is a fact. Universities teach it, Dawkins promotes it, text books, tv documentaries all say evolution is a fact, so if a minority disagree they stand out. Evolution is taught by rules which govern the inheritance of physical charateristics and these rules have no morals. Keep morality out of science. If there is a creator you have morality. If not, you are free to say man is master. Facts of science now show levels of the earth which the oldest rocks have few fossils, the newest layer has fully formed complex animals, nothing in between. Creatures would need new genetic information, massive amounts of new genetic code to change a fish into a lizard. It would need vertebrae, to support its legs, it would need ligaments, bone, etc. It would need massive amounts of new code to change a fish into a lizard, but there is nothing in between these layers of fossils to suggest a gradual change. Code is talked about but cannot be designed. Existing genes can be switched on by environmental pressure, used for survival in changing enviromental surroundings. It doesnt produce new types of animal only a change due to environment. The theory of evolution depends on a huge amount of information arriving by chance. What is really happening is loss of genetic information, no new genetic information is being formed. The best team of scientists still can't make life and say how it came into existence. Life did not happen by chance. If you go to Cosmology.com there are many scientists who now claim evolution is impossible and that there is no real evidence in scientific literature to support it.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:56 am

Yes, the fossil record is incomplete, it is surprising that there are any fossils at all if you consider the conditions needed to form a fossil. There are some animals that have left almost no fossil record, sharks come to mind, the only remains we find of prehistoric sharks is their teeth. Some Soft bodied animals have left no record at all.

The criticism that live could not have formed on the early Earth is meaningless, and stating that it came from outer space only moves the problem elsewhere. First they state that life cannot arise from non-life on Earth, and then state that it came from off the Earth but that still doesn't answer the real question how did life start in the first place.

The argument that the large scale structure of the Universe could not have formed in the time estimated only holds up if you ignore the possibility that the Big Bang was not a one time event, but an ongoing process where the original explosion fragmented into many points of creation that might be found within the voids identified in the large scale structure, but no-one is looking.

On a NOVA series Origins, there is a biologist who criticizes movie portrails of alliens for having 'Faces' claiming that any creature having a 'face' must have evolved on Earth. He was totally discounting the possibility of parallel evolution and the concept that nature will addopt the most effecient form wherever it happens. Having all the sense organs clustered close to the brain in a seperate appendage that can move and turn relative to the main body is a survuval advantage for both predator and prey. The alledged biologist is totally off the mark.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by RIW » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:30 pm

I do not believe God is all powerful. I believe God is a connective force. Not some gray haired old man throwing bolts of lightning! I believe God is as different from man as possible! The only similarity may be that we are both observers. God enables evolution it does not control it. All is evolving hydrogen to helium, signal cell to man. All moves to higher levels of complexity. God is the value setter not a rule changer. God may be the movement of the void connecting everything to everything.
There is a new discussion just starting at theinfinitemind.org on the Big bang.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:22 pm

RIW wrote:I do not believe God is all powerful. I believe God is a connective force. Not some gray haired old man throwing bolts of lightning! I believe God is as different from man as possible! The only similarity may be that we are both observers. God enables evolution it does not control it. All is evolving hydrogen to helium, signal cell to man. All moves to higher levels of complexity. God is the value setter not a rule changer. God may be the movement of the void connecting everything to everything.
There is a new discussion just starting at theinfinitemind.org on the Big bang.
"All moves to higher levels of complexity"? Have you seen a teenager's bedroom? The statement violated the 2nd law of thermodynamics, for one thing, and is just flat-out wrong. You seem to have swallowed a great deal of New Age dogma. Your god does not exist. There is no evidence of any invisible hand behind evolution. The math is too clear on that.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:49 pm

ForgedinHell wrote: "All moves to higher levels of complexity"? Have you seen a teenager's bedroom?

Yes, and it seems that you are assuming that chaos is less complex than order. I would think that order is somewhat less complex that chaos.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:39 am

John wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote:
thedoc wrote:Infinity is a mathametical concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe since neither is infinite.

In a like manner eternity is a religious concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe, only with God.
Nothing to do with reality? LOL. You have no idea how foolish you are. Without the concept of infinity, your speedometer would not work, unless you traveled at a constant speed. How do you think an instantaneous speed is calculated, for a variable speed? One must use the concept of infinity.
I interpreted thedoc to mean that infinity was a mathematical concept but nothing was infinite in reality. I further assumed that he really meant that nothing physical was infinite in reality (so he wasn't claiming that there isn't an infinite sequence of numbers for example). From this I infer that we can deduce things about the physical nature of reality, such as what speed I'm travelling at to use your example, by employing the concept of infinity.
I know what he meant, and he is wrong. How does the concept of infinity actually work to solve problems if it has nothing to do with reality?

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ForgedinHell
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:42 am

Bernard wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote: Why is being is unanswerable? Someone forgot to tell that to the physics community.
I guess it wasn't necessary as they are not much concerned with philosophy.

You see, to explain being as a a physical phenomenon, and the result only of physical forces, does not cut it with philosophy because philosophy has not traditionally confined itself to physical explanations, or to science in general. Science is itself a more encompassing term than physics. Physics is a branch of science - why do so many physicists seem to forget that? There has been a huge push on to disallow any science that doesn't deal exclusively with a physical description of the world and of how it works. Its almost as if science is becoming a branch of physics. It won't last.
The elite science is physics. I actually think the quote "All science is physics or stamp collecting" is true. In any event, something has always existed, so it's not an issue. Philosophy is basically kids making mud pies, while science is sending probes into deep space. I'm sticking with the science people.

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ForgedinHell
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:44 am

thedoc wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote: "All moves to higher levels of complexity"? Have you seen a teenager's bedroom?

Yes, and it seems that you are assuming that chaos is less complex than order. I would think that order is somewhat less complex that chaos.
I'm not assuming anything. The universe we live in is dying. It's average temperature is barely above absolute zero as it is and the total energy in our universe is zero. It is rather ironic that you think I am uneducated when it is you who is not even aware of one of the most fundamental laws of physics, the second law of thermodynamics. Consider yourself to be an uneducated fool until you learn about it.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by RIW » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:45 am

dear Fogedinhell
The math shows that things move from order to disorder. but the same math shows that it can move from disorder to order. When a rock erodes into the ocean and becomes part of a living thing has it moved from order or to order. and I said that God enables evolution it does not control it. so what math are you referring to. and Hay! who's the fool the fool or the philosopher
calling a philosopher with a different view a fool.

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