An argument for the existence of God

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Bernard
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by Bernard » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:44 am

ForgedinHell wrote: If god were infinite, then how would you know? One can't even count half way to infinity. Besides, there are many different types of infinities. There are as many even numbers as there are odd and even numbers combined, as an example, which would make the infinities equal. However, we know some infinities are larger than others. Draw a circle, two inches in diameter. Now, how many lines would it take, originating from the center of that circle to cover all points on the circumference? It would have to be an infinite number. Now, draw another circle, using the same center, but make it four inches in diameter. If you were to draw the lines that would cover every point on the smaller circle's circumference, to the larger circle's circumerence, you would find gaps. That means that even an infinte number of lines cannot cover all the points on the larger circle. So, some infinites are larger than others. So, when you say god is infinite, what size infinity are we speaking of?
I don't know if this works. Is the repeated line from the center a fixed width? If so the the first circle will have a limit of lines. Of course its impossible to attain a fixed width that is perfectly repeated. Also its impossible to get a line to join perfectly into a circle: because of the above and because there is no such thing as a perfect meeting point with the two ends of a line, so there is always going to be escape point from the circle for any line that meets the circle join.

reasonvemotion
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by reasonvemotion » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 am

Yes, unless God is a human creation, then God would be a human comprehension.

Doesn't belief in the big bang require just as much faith as believing that God created the world. Statistically speaking, it takes as much if not more faith to believe that we all evolved from pond scum.

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Bernard
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by Bernard » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:04 am

I believe infinity is alive, and therefore active; it is such because it is composed exclusively of living things; living things are its only substance. Therefore we do create and co-create it in infinitesimal ways. There is no end or beginning to life.

thedoc
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:17 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
Yes, unless God is a human creation, then God would be a human comprehension.

Doesn't belief in the big bang require just as much faith as believing that God created the world. Statistically speaking, it takes as much if not more faith to believe that we all evolved from pond scum.

Not really, there is a great deal of physical evidence for the 'Big Bang' and 'Evolution' unless you are ready to simply dismiss any evidence that does support it. There is no evidence for the existance of God that I am aware of, it isn't really necessary.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by RIW » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:23 am

Dear Forgedinhell
I too am familiar with "infinity of infinities"
I refer to the biggest one, just joking. The Infinite, That which is without end, there cannot be a bigger one for if there was the first one would be less than infinite making the it finite. We are finite and so are our numbers for no number that has not been assigned a value is real. our numbers are only as big or as small as we have counted. The Infinite is everything. The idea of the Infinite We can! comprehend, but we cannot know it. As you pointed out no one could count to infinity. The Infinite knows infinity first hand. There are infinite possibilities. but only one Infinite for all possibilities exist within it, And all our numbers as well.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:25 am

ForgedinHell wrote: However, we know some infinities are larger than others. Draw a circle, two inches in diameter. Now, how many lines would it take, originating from the center of that circle to cover all points on the circumference? It would have to be an infinite number. Now, draw another circle, using the same center, but make it four inches in diameter. If you were to draw the lines that would cover every point on the smaller circle's circumference, to the larger circle's circumerence, you would find gaps. That means that even an infinte number of lines cannot cover all the points on the larger circle. So, some infinites are larger than others.

If there are an infinite number of points on the circumference of a circle it doesn't matter what size the circle is, this is just a conjuror's trick of language to confuse people. If you draw a larger circle and find that there are gaps then you have reduced the smaller circle to a finite number of lines and points, which defeats the argument.
Last edited by thedoc on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

reasonvemotion
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by reasonvemotion » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:38 am

Not really, there is a great deal of physical evidence for the 'Big Bang' and 'Evolution' unless you are ready to simply dismiss any evidence that does support it. There is no evidence for the existance of God that I am aware of, it isn't really necessary.
Dismiss. Never. I am eager to read your views on the 'Big Bang', make it simple for I am a simple gal.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by RIW » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:44 am

The mathematical evidence of our universe points to a set of values that are so précis that they have been set by something. Or we live in a multivers . there is no observation that has been made other than need to explaining the preciseness of these values without them having been set by something.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:54 am

The best evidence is the 'cosmic background radiation' that theorists worked out based on the estimated age of the universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_mic ... _radiation

The expansion of the universe also gives a clue, if everything is moving apart, reverse time and everything comes together. It seems Einstein's theory predicted an expanding universe, but he didn't like the idea, so introduced a factor into the equations to make the universe stand still. Later when visiting Hubble he described as his biggest blunder.

It also seems that atoms structure gives clues to the Big Bang but I must admit that I have not personally examined this evidence, or any of the others, I don't have the proper equipment. No particle accelerator, no microwave antenna, and I have not checked Einstein's math for errors.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:58 am

RIW wrote:The mathematical evidence of our universe points to a set of values that are so précis that they have been set by something. Or we live in a multivers . there is no observation that has been made other than need to explaining the preciseness of these values without them having been set by something.
The suggestion of the multiverse is based on the idea that there is an infinite number of universes each being slightly different. Then at least one would have the correct combination of values. That seems like a lot of trouble to go to if you could just set the values correctly for the one we have.

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Bernard
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by Bernard » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:08 am

RIW wrote:Dear Forgedinhell
I too am familiar with "infinity of infinities"
I refer to the biggest one, just joking. The Infinite, That which is without end, there cannot be a bigger one for if there was the first one would be less than infinite making the it finite. We are finite and so are our numbers for no number that has not been assigned a value is real. our numbers are only as big or as small as we have counted. The Infinite is everything. The idea of the Infinite We can! comprehend, but we cannot know it. As you pointed out no one could count to infinity. The Infinite knows infinity first hand. There are infinite possibilities. but only one Infinite for all possibilities exist within it, And all our numbers as well.
Essentially infinity has nothing to do with size, neither dimensional or numerical. It can't be everything, because that's a size. Treating it as a noun sizes it. It is not comprehensible, non-heirarchic ontology. It equates with questions like why is being? which, because it is unanswerable is more a brief reflection or, more abstractly; activation of perception/awareness.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:44 am

RIW wrote:Dear Forgedinhell
I too am familiar with "infinity of infinities"
I refer to the biggest one, just joking. The Infinite, That which is without end, there cannot be a bigger one for if there was the first one would be less than infinite making the it finite. We are finite and so are our numbers for no number that has not been assigned a value is real. our numbers are only as big or as small as we have counted. The Infinite is everything. The idea of the Infinite We can! comprehend, but we cannot know it. As you pointed out no one could count to infinity. The Infinite knows infinity first hand. There are infinite possibilities. but only one Infinite for all possibilities exist within it, And all our numbers as well.
But that's not true. All infinities are without end. That still does not mean that some infinities are not larger than others. And no, our numbers are infinite. In fact, no god could ever state what the smallest positive number is. And no, we can know the infinite even if we cannot count that high. That is because there are mathematical concepts that are even more fundamental than counting. And there are not an infinite number of possibilities. For example, it is impossible for anyone, including an allegedly all-powerful god to name the smallest positive number, beyond zero, in a base ten system. The possibility of any one, including a god, answering that question is zero.

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ForgedinHell
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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:45 am

thedoc wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote: However, we know some infinities are larger than others. Draw a circle, two inches in diameter. Now, how many lines would it take, originating from the center of that circle to cover all points on the circumference? It would have to be an infinite number. Now, draw another circle, using the same center, but make it four inches in diameter. If you were to draw the lines that would cover every point on the smaller circle's circumference, to the larger circle's circumerence, you would find gaps. That means that even an infinte number of lines cannot cover all the points on the larger circle. So, some infinites are larger than others.

If there are an infinite number of points on the circumference of a circle it doesn't matter what size the circle is, this is just a conjuror's trick of language to confuse people. If you draw a larger circle and find that there are gaps then you have reduced the smaller circle to a finite number of lines and points, which defeats the argument.
No, you are completely wrong. The first circle still contains an infinite number of points. Some infinities are simply larger than others.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by ForgedinHell » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:46 am

Bernard wrote:
RIW wrote:Dear Forgedinhell
I too am familiar with "infinity of infinities"
I refer to the biggest one, just joking. The Infinite, That which is without end, there cannot be a bigger one for if there was the first one would be less than infinite making the it finite. We are finite and so are our numbers for no number that has not been assigned a value is real. our numbers are only as big or as small as we have counted. The Infinite is everything. The idea of the Infinite We can! comprehend, but we cannot know it. As you pointed out no one could count to infinity. The Infinite knows infinity first hand. There are infinite possibilities. but only one Infinite for all possibilities exist within it, And all our numbers as well.
Essentially infinity has nothing to do with size, neither dimensional or numerical. It can't be everything, because that's a size. Treating it as a noun sizes it. It is not comprehensible, non-heirarchic ontology. It equates with questions like why is being? which, because it is unanswerable is more a brief reflection or, more abstractly; activation of perception/awareness.
Why is being is unanswerable? Someone forgot to tell that to the physics community.

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Re: An argument for the existence of God

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:09 am

Infinity is a mathametical concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe since neither is infinite.

In a like manner eternity is a religious concept that has nothing to do with reality or the Universe, only with God.

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