What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

So what's really going on?

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John
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by John »

chaz wyman wrote:
spike wrote:The truth is, as defined by Francis Fukuyama, liberal democracy incorporates capitalism, the term liberal meaning capitalism and the free market, in the classic sense. What Fukuyama was suggesting is that neither capitalism nor democracy can exist without the other. And I think that is true.

It is patently false. Nearly all countries that have no democracy are capitalist.

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Isn't he saying that all liberal democracies are capitalist though rather than all capitalist societies are liberal democracies? I think it might be the first correct thing he's said to be honest.

Edit: Just meant that to mean the bit about liberal democracy incorporating capitalism. The bit about capitalism and democracy being codependent is more contentious.
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by chaz wyman »

John wrote: Isn't he saying that all liberal democracies are capitalist though rather than all capitalist societies are liberal democracies? I think it might be the first correct thing he's said to be honest.

Did you not read the same passage that I did."neither capitalism nor democracy can exist without the other". Capitalism is alive and kicking in Saudi Arabia, in fact it thrives better than it does in democracies that tend to regulate and tax it.

Edit: Just meant that to mean the bit about liberal democracy incorporating capitalism. The bit about capitalism and democracy being codependent is more contentious.
spike
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by spike »

Capitalism is alive and kicking in Saudi Arabia, in fact it thrives better than it does in democracies that tend to regulate and tax it.
I wouldn't call what they practice in Saudi Arabia capitalism. It is certainly not a free market economics as capitalism is generally defined. It is a crony type of capitalism that benefits only a few. If capitalism is alive and kicking in this Kingdom then it is kicking the majority who aren't able to participate in it.

What Saudi Arabia practices are those aspects of capitalism that it must in order to do business with the rest of the world. But it certainly doesn't practice it on a broad scale from which the majority can benefit. If it did then it would be like a democracy where people are free to make economic choice about what they can own and where they can work. If it was a true capitalist country women would be free to own property and drive cars.
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John
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by John »

chaz wyman wrote:
John wrote: Isn't he saying that all liberal democracies are capitalist though rather than all capitalist societies are liberal democracies? I think it might be the first correct thing he's said to be honest.

Did you not read the same passage that I did."neither capitalism nor democracy can exist without the other". Capitalism is alive and kicking in Saudi Arabia, in fact it thrives better than it does in democracies that tend to regulate and tax it.
Nah, you're right. I'd initially picked up on his statement "liberal democracy incorporates capitalism" and responded to that before I reread and picked up the part you quoted. Comes with reading too fast after too much beer late at night :lol:
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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spike, you know that China is Communist, right?






Image




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spike
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by spike »

spike, you know that China is Communist, right?
Is that the truth, Bill?

What is your point? If it's about economics, China is certainly not following in the steps of Marxism or is conducting economic policy strictly on a communist basis. Its looser economic policy is creating a pool of independent capitalist and entrepreneurs.

Over the years China has liberalized its economics in order to profit from globalization. And as the years go by China will politically become less communist as its growing affluent population demand more say in how the country is run.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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I'm sorry spike I got distracted. I didn't hear you. Was that a yes?



Let me ask you again...

Do you realize that The Peoples Republic of China is Communist?



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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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...and spike, I'm not questioning your intelligence.

You can use the internet on this one. Check-out to see what is generally recognized as communist countries on the planet earth.

A good way to do that would be to use your internet search engine.

For example you could type in the words- List Communist Countries.


Then you could share with all of us the information you found.



Then we would all be able to accept at least one basic, accepted truth within this thread.



The picture I used to initiate this thread symbolizes what we are all guilty of. In reality, I don't think any of us are able to see THE TRUTH. I believe each of us blocks the fluid totality of truth that could be found within each of our moments.

Fear & ego stop us from seeing greater truth. Each of us struggles, to whatever degree we understand, to find truth.

However, as humans, we use logic to help us find general truths.

Please tell me what you find out about the general truth as to whether or not China is considered a Communist country.






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John
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by John »

Is China communist because the ruling party say it's communist or is it communist because it shares characteristics with Marx's definition of communism? If not the latter then maybe that just makes it not Marxist but Spike is right to say that China doesn't have a communist economic system and if communism is an economic system then China isn't communist. China also has a large wealth disparity as well so I'd be interested to see if anyone can make a case for it being socially communist either.
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Arising_uk
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Arising_uk »

spike wrote:... And as the years go by China will politically become less communist as its growing affluent population demand more say in how the country is run.
So you are a marxist!?
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Thank you John for responding.


For me, I am looking at the form of government that The Peoples Republic of China now has. I think it has been in place since around 1949.

The following link reflects most reliable lists of Communists countries in the world today.
http://geography.about.com/od/lists/tp/ ... ntries.htm




Economically and socially I believe this article from yesterday accurately reflects China's general temperament towards it's peoples.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/ ... H820110428



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Michael Posner, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, reacts to a question during a media conference at the U.S. embassy in Beijing April 28, 2011 after the conclusion of the human rights dialogue with China. REUTERS/David Gray

By Chris Buckley

BEIJING | Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:29am EDT

(Reuters) - The United States is "deeply concerned" about a crackdown on dissidents and rights lawyers in China, and the friction could impede the two powers' ties, Assistant Secretary of State Michael Posner said on Thursday after "tough" talks in Beijing.

The latest U.S.-China dialogue on human rights came at a contentious time, after China has jailed, detained or placed in secretive informal custody dozens of dissidents, human rights lawyers and protesters it fears will challenge Communist Party rule.

Posner told reporters after the two days of talks that he had raised the Obama administration's "deep concerns" about that crackdown, and he warned the broader relationship could suffer.

"We had a tough set of discussions," he told a news conference at the U.S. Embassy in Beijing.

"In fact, in recent months we've seen a serious backsliding on human rights, and a discussion of these negative trends dominated the human rights dialogue," he said.

"The most senior government officials of the United States are deeply concerned about the deterioration of human rights in China over the last several months," said Posner, who steers U.S. diplomacy about democracy, human rights and labor affairs.

The Obama administration would also discuss human rights at the annual Strategic and Economic in Washington D.C. next month, when top-level Washington and Beijing officials will talk about economic ties, currency issues and international security.

"Human rights is an essential feature of what we do, and so to the extent that there are serious human rights problems, those problems become an impediment to the relationship, and they make the other aspects of the relationship more difficult," said Posner.

China's leaders have become increasingly unyielding in the face of Western pressure over human rights issues, and say that those complaints amount to illegitimate meddling.

Beijing's alarm about dissent grew after overseas Chinese websites in February spread calls for protests across China inspired by the "Jasmine Revolution" of anti-authoritarian uprisings across the Arab world.

Since around that time, China has jailed, detained or placed in secretive informal custody dozens of dissidents, human rights lawyers and protesters it fears will challenge Communist Party rule.

They include the prominent artist-activist Ai Weiwei, who faces a police investigation on suspected economic crimes that his family has called an unfounded excuse for locking him up.

Posner said he raised the case of Ai, who is well-known abroad for his contemporary art and design.

"On that case, we certainly did not get an answer that satisfies," he said of Ai. "There was no sense of comfort from the response or the lack of response."

Chinese police have said Ai, a critic of China's ruling Communist Party, was under investigation for "suspected economic crimes." His family says the accusations are an unfounded excuse to silence him, and they have not heard directly from him since he was detained in early April.

U.S. officials also raised missing human rights lawyers, including Teng Biao; and Xue Feng, a U.S. citizen born in China who was jailed on controversial secrets charges, said Posner.

"Teng Biao's case is one that I'm particularly concerned about, because he has been missing for the last several weeks," said Posner.

"It's most unsettling and disturbing to, obviously, the families but to all of us when people simply disappear."

"FRANK" EXCHANGES

The mounting U.S.-China tensions over human rights carry echoes of 2010, when ties between the two countries were strained by arguments over Chinese Internet censorship; President Obama's meeting with the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled leader; and Beijing's outrage after the jailed Chinese dissident, Liu Xiaobo, won the Nobel Peace Prize.

Relations steadied after Chinese President Hu Jintao visited Washington for a summit in January this year. But Posner warned that human rights could become a sore spot.

"Inevitably, when there's been a deterioration, as there has been here, it makes the relationship that much harder," he said.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said earlier this month that she was "deeply concerned" about China's clamp-down and cited issues such as the detention of the Chinese artist and human rights activist Ai.

China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei, speaking at a separate news briefing earlier on Thursday, said the human rights dialogue had been candid and in-depth.

"Both sides had frank and thorough exchanges on issues of mutual concern. Both sides said they were willing, on the basis of equality and mutual respect, to have dialogue," Hong said.

"At the same time we oppose the United States using human rights to interfere in China's internal affairs," Hong added, in a standard repetition of Beijing's stance.





Sorry about the length of this post John but form of government and basic human rights seem to overpower ALL aspects of China still today.

As I have posted before the marriage that has taken place between capitalism & Communism in China is culminating to an evil and a hell never before experienced on this earth to date. Man's inhumanity to man is perhaps embarking upon our final chapter. This isn't going to be a happy ending. We don't live in a fairytale. There is no father in the clouds to save us...



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John
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

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Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Sorry about the length of this post John but form of government and basic human rights seem to overpower ALL aspects of China still today.

As I have posted before the marriage that has taken place between capitalism & Communism in China is culminating to an evil and a hell never before experienced on this earth to date. Man's inhumanity to man is perhaps embarking upon our final chapter. This isn't going to be a happy ending. We don't live in a fairytale. There is no father in the clouds to save us...
Hi Bill,

I really think China is a mixture of plain old authoritarianism and capitalism rather than communism and capitalism. I'll admit that I'm fairly sympathetic to Marxist analysis (although it's been a long time since I've described myself as a Marxist) but even if we accept that Maoism is a valid form of communism it was pretty much jettisoned by Deng Xiaoping in 1978 when the reforms started and China is no longer Maoist and is, in my opinion, no longer communist.
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by spike »

Sorry Bill, I got distracted by your sarcasm.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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No spike, I am not being, nor have I been sarcastic.


Do you have the ability to understand that The Peoples Republic of China is Communist?


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chaz wyman
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by chaz wyman »

spike wrote:
Capitalism is alive and kicking in Saudi Arabia, in fact it thrives better than it does in democracies that tend to regulate and tax it.
I wouldn't call what they practice in Saudi Arabia capitalism. It is certainly not a free market economics as capitalism is generally defined. It is a crony type of capitalism that benefits only a few. If capitalism is alive and kicking in this Kingdom then it is kicking the majority who aren't able to participate in it.

But the only reason you would not call it "Capitalist" is because you don't like Saudi Arabia. The simple fact is that Saudi Arabia is what happens when you get free capitalism, without social justice.
It is clear that you have not thought things through. You don't really know what capitalism is, and have no idea as to its end game.


What Saudi Arabia practices are those aspects of capitalism that it must in order to do business with the rest of the world. But it certainly doesn't practice it on a broad scale from which the majority can benefit.


There is nothing in capitalism that would even begin to suggest that it has to benefit the majority.
The tendency of capitalism is the polarisation of wealth through to exploitation of the majority.
It is a system that guarantees that an increasingly smaller group of people control more and more resources.
Open your eyes to what has been happening in your own country under Bush! More people were getting rich and more people were getting poor. This is the natural consequence of capitalism.



If it did then it would be like a democracy where people are free to make economic choice about what they can own and where
they can work. If it was a true capitalist country women would be free to own property and drive cars.

That's a complete red herring. Men are poor in SA too.
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