Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

So what's really going on?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:24 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:42 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 11:19 pm

Meaning is particular to biological life; it has no relevance to anything else. The physical world in the absence of a conscious subject/life, is utterly meaningless. Meaning is what is experienced, and once experienced the subject then bestows that experience/knowledge/meaning upon a meaningless world. There is no taste but to a taster.
And yet non-biological phenomena are directed towards the manifestation of biological phenomena, i.e. Carbon results in a life form, thus meaning does not have to be an expression of consciousness unless we are to state that consciousness goes beyond biology.
Yes of course there is always speculations that consciousness is possibly a property of the cosmos, of elementary particles etc. A mind-stretching read is that of Albert North Whitehead, very difficult as free-ranging metaphysics. Just google him, he was a very prolific writer and philosopher/mathematician.
"Whitehead argued that reality consists of processes rather than material objects, and that processes are best defined by their relations with other processes, thus rejecting the theory that reality is fundamentally constructed by bits of matter that exist independently of one another."

I would extend the point even further an say that matter is just a process as all forms are simply matter dividing matter much like the inner space of a circle is divided from the outer space of the circle by the space of the circle itself. This process through a process as a process results in process contradicting itself however as the division of a process is a process. From this a whole range of possibilities emerge...contradiction is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Agent Smith »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 8:05 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:05 am I believe Age hit the bullseye as regards what the OP asserts.

The OP's thesis, Age, if you're reading this, sets the stage, creates the perfect conditions as it were, for a certain kinda a philosophy that some find revolting while for others it's simply a way of life.
And yet both views exist thus leaving us with contradiction. Reality is both "what is" and "what is not".
That's correct!
popeye1945
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:48 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:24 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:42 pm

And yet non-biological phenomena are directed towards the manifestation of biological phenomena, i.e. Carbon results in a life form, thus meaning does not have to be an expression of consciousness unless we are to state that consciousness goes beyond biology.
Yes of course there is always speculations that consciousness is possibly a property of the cosmos, of elementary particles etc. A mind-stretching read is that of Albert North Whitehead, very difficult as free-ranging metaphysics. Just google him, he was a very prolific writer and philosopher/mathematician.
"Whitehead argued that reality consists of processes rather than material objects, and that processes are best defined by their relations with other processes, thus rejecting the theory that reality is fundamentally constructed by bits of matter that exist independently of one another."

I would extend the point even further an say that matter is just a process as all forms are simply matter dividing matter much like the inner space of a circle is divided from the outer space of the circle by the space of the circle itself. This process through a process as a process results in process contradicting itself however as the division of a process is a process. From this a whole range of possibilities emerge...contradiction is not necessarily a bad thing.
Which ultimately means it's all process.
popeye1945
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by popeye1945 »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:20 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 8:05 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:05 am I believe Age hit the bullseye as regards what the OP asserts.

The OP's thesis, Age, if you're reading this, sets the stage, creates the perfect conditions as it were, for a certain kinda a philosophy that some find revolting while for others it's simply a way of life.
And yet both views exist thus leaving us with contradiction. Reality is both "what is" and "what is not".
That's correct!
Are there dimensions to both or is that which is not, limitless?
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Agent Smith
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Agent Smith »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:56 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:20 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 8:05 pm

And yet both views exist thus leaving us with contradiction. Reality is both "what is" and "what is not".
That's correct!
Are there dimensions to both or is that which is not, limitless?
Please search Age's posts for an appropriate response to that question. It won't be easy, but it's not impossible! :)

Eodnhoj7 is onto something as far as I can tell. Aristotle comes ta mind ... the mind that ruled over Europe for at least 1k years. Imagine that!
popeye1945
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by popeye1945 »

The main processes of apparent reality are that of energies and a conscious subject, for apparent reality is a biological simulation or biological readout. Biology then knows apparent reality as that which alters its biology in positive or negative ways, and not as the true object of the source of those effects, this remains unknown to the subject.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:54 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:48 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:24 pm

Yes of course there is always speculations that consciousness is possibly a property of the cosmos, of elementary particles etc. A mind-stretching read is that of Albert North Whitehead, very difficult as free-ranging metaphysics. Just google him, he was a very prolific writer and philosopher/mathematician.
"Whitehead argued that reality consists of processes rather than material objects, and that processes are best defined by their relations with other processes, thus rejecting the theory that reality is fundamentally constructed by bits of matter that exist independently of one another."

I would extend the point even further an say that matter is just a process as all forms are simply matter dividing matter much like the inner space of a circle is divided from the outer space of the circle by the space of the circle itself. This process through a process as a process results in process contradicting itself however as the division of a process is a process. From this a whole range of possibilities emerge...contradiction is not necessarily a bad thing.
Which ultimately means it's all process.
Absolutely, but that leaves us with a paradox considering if 'everything is a process' and there is no process beyond this 'universal process of processes' (otherwise process would not be universal if something was beyond it) then the nature of process is empty as only itself exists and comparison is necessary for distinction. In other terms; to relegate everything to 'anyone thing' is to result in that very same everything being nothing as it cannot be distinct from itself. However if there is a distinction of 'itself from itself' then contradiction results and anything can go.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:52 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:56 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:20 am

That's correct!
Are there dimensions to both or is that which is not, limitless?
Please search Age's posts for an appropriate response to that question. It won't be easy, but it's not impossible! :)

Eodnhoj7 is onto something as far as I can tell. Aristotle comes ta mind ... the mind that ruled over Europe for at least 1k years. Imagine that!
Aristotle had his faults. Am I against Aristotle? No. Am I for him? No. Why? Example:

The laws of logic applied to themselves result in the negation of said laws. If the law of excluded middle is applied to the law of identity (equality) and the law of non-contradiction (inequality) then either the law of identity is true and non-contradiction is false or the law of identity is false and the law of non-contradiction is true.

1. If the law of identity is true and the law of non-contradiction is false then A=A but A=-A in which case A equals everything thus is meaningless.
2. If the law of identity is false and the law of non-contradiction is true then A=/=A and A=/=-A in which case A equals nothing thus is meaningless.
3. In one respect A equals everything and in another respect A equals nothing, dependent upon the choice made because of the 'or' operator of excluded middle. Either way A is meaningless as everything is without compare thus has no distinctions therefore is nothing; nothing is without distinctions thus is inseparable from everything as there are no distinctions to separate the two.

Now as to why I don't disagree with Aristotle:

All the laws exist as the manifestation of distinctions, and even though distinctions result in contradictions (as one thing must stand apart from another thing to gain identity), these distinctions stand nonetheless as they form our reality regardless of if they make sense or not. They are what they are and to negate them requires one to first observe them and this act of observation of a thing, regardless of its level of truth, necessitates existence through observation alone.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Agent Smith »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:17 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:52 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:56 pm

Are there dimensions to both or is that which is not, limitless?
Please search Age's posts for an appropriate response to that question. It won't be easy, but it's not impossible! :)

Eodnhoj7 is onto something as far as I can tell. Aristotle comes ta mind ... the mind that ruled over Europe for at least 1k years. Imagine that!
Aristotle had his faults. Am I against Aristotle? No. Am I for him? No. Why? Example:

The laws of logic applied to themselves result in the negation of said laws. If the law of excluded middle is applied to the law of identity (equality) and the law of non-contradiction (inequality) then either the law of identity is true and non-contradiction is false or the law of identity is false and the law of non-contradiction is true.

1. If the law of identity is true and the law of non-contradiction is false then A=A but A=-A in which case A equals everything thus is meaningless.
2. If the law of identity is false and the law of non-contradiction is true then A=/=A and A=/=-A in which case A equals nothing thus is meaningless.
3. In one respect A equals everything and in another respect A equals nothing, dependent upon the choice made because of the 'or' operator of excluded middle. Either way A is meaningless as everything is without compare thus has no distinctions therefore is nothing; nothing is without distinctions thus is inseparable from everything as there are no distinctions to separate the two.

Now as to why I don't disagree with Aristotle:

All the laws exist as the manifestation of distinctions, and even though distinctions result in contradictions (as one thing must stand apart from another thing to gain identity), these distinctions stand nonetheless as they form our reality regardless of if they make sense or not. They are what they are and to negate them requires one to first observe them and this act of observation of a thing, regardless of its level of truth, necessitates existence through observation alone.
Look, I'm no logician, but in me eyes you've hit upon an idea that should bring back childhood memories. El Rachum/Allah Rahim! I neither have the resources nor what should be a burning desire to be of any assistance ta ya. There are too many variables and you know what that means, oui? An apple ... where's one when ya need one!!??

Well known epistemological questions pop to mind, but it's not my place to comment on them. I'm lost ... in space, no cross that out, in chronus.
Skepdick
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Skepdick »

Harbal wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:09 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:00 pm
Harbal wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:13 pm

What a load of utter codswallop. :shock:
I didn't ask for your mental state.
I suppose you think that is a sharp, witty reply, don't you? Well let me tell you, it isn't. It's pathetic! absolutely pathetic! Do you hear me?! Pathetic! :twisted:

:cry:
If you are lost on a point then say so and I will explain further.
Don't you dare. :x
I was expecting much better trolling from the elderly.

This is teenager level performance.
Skepdick
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:54 pm Which ultimately means it's all process.
The question "What is a process?" has a very good and detailed answer in computer science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_calculus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurren ... r_science)

If those answers aren't satisfactory to you, consider that you didn't mean what you said.
popeye1945
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by popeye1945 »

There is nothing in the world that has meaning in the absence of a conscious subject. All meaning is biological experience, which the subject then bestows as property upon an otherwise meaningless world.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:49 pm There is nothing in the world that has meaning in the absence of a conscious subject. All meaning is biological experience, which the subject then bestows as property upon an otherwise meaningless world.
If meaning is dependent upon consciousness then the observation of consciousness through consciousness, consciousness means consciousness, makes the concept of meaning self-referential and meaningless as it is absent of comparison. The self-referentiality of consciousness makes it effectively nothing and as nothing has no distinguishing marks that can separate it from everything.

From another angle the manifestation of meaning upon the meaningless, biological upon the non-biological, necessitates all meaning as dependent upon what is meaningless and vice-versa. Under these terms the title of the OP, "Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless", stands.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:30 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:54 pm Which ultimately means it's all process.
The question "What is a process?" has a very good and detailed answer in computer science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_calculus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurren ... r_science)

If those answers aren't satisfactory to you, consider that you didn't mean what you said.
'Process occurring through process' makes 'process' indistinct.
popeye1945
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Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:57 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:30 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:54 pm Which ultimately means it's all process.
The question "What is a process?" has a very good and detailed answer in computer science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_calculus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurren ... r_science)

If those answers aren't satisfactory to you, consider that you didn't mean what you said.
'Process occurring through process' makes 'process' indistinct.
Process is a staged system and all of reality is a process, some more than others are understandable to our consciousness
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