Materialism: How doubt could be real?
Materialism: How doubt could be real?
Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).
There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.
Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?
There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.
Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?
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Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
What, pray tell, is the reason for this doubt you're talking about?bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).
There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.
Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?
Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
The point as I illustrated is that there exist two options for when doubt exists whereas in materialism there is only one option allowable.Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:53 amWhat, pray tell, is the reason for this doubt you're talking about?bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).
There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.
Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?
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Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
Ah, I see. Have you tried reframing the issue in all materialistic frameworks?bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:46 amThe point as I illustrated is that there exist two options for when doubt exists whereas in materialism there is only one option allowable.Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:53 amWhat, pray tell, is the reason for this doubt you're talking about?bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).
There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.
Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?
Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
What do you mean by all?Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:50 amAh, I see. Have you tried reframing the issue in all materialistic frameworks?bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:46 amThe point as I illustrated is that there exist two options for when doubt exists whereas in materialism there is only one option allowable.Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:53 am
What, pray tell, is the reason for this doubt you're talking about?
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Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
It seems like you are treating doubt as ontology.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).
There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.
Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?
How does the existence of doubt entail that there must be more than one option?
Does desire or confusion or fear or mulling ör any other cognitive state create more options?
How?
How does my not being sure that X will happen entail that a couple of things can happen?
If I doubt I exist do I exist less? If I doubt there is a state t coming, does it become half an outcome?v Why does doubt have ontological power and a kind of magical one it seems?
Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
Yes, we experience it all the time and it affects our life.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pmIt seems like you are treating doubt as ontology.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).
There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.
Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?
I am talking about the category of the doubt when we are dealing with options, like whether I should buy a lottery ticket or not, etc.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm How does the existence of doubt entail that there must be more than one option?
It could be depending on the situation in other words if there is tension between options.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm Does desire or confusion or fear or mulling ör any other cognitive state create more options?
How?
I am talking about the situation in that we know that options exist.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm How does my not being sure that X will happen entail that a couple of things can happen?
I am not talking about this kind of doubt.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm If I doubt I exist do I exist less? If I doubt there is a state t coming, does it become half an outcome?
It has power. You pause for a while when you have a doubt.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm Why does doubt have ontological power and a kind of magical one it seems?
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Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
Person walking utterly determined. Person has a moment of doubt, utterly determined. This doubt imagines there are several possible outcomes, but there aren't. Person decides to go to where they were always heading.
I understand that doubt can be related to a seeming couple of options, but that doesn't mean anything else was going to happen. Just like seeing an illusory oasis in the desert doesn't mean there were two possible futures one will an oasis one without.
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Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
Atheists claim there is no god.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:58 pmWhat do you mean by all?Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:50 amAh, I see. Have you tried reframing the issue in all materialistic frameworks?
Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
So to you only one option is real and another one is an illusion?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:38 pmPerson walking utterly determined. Person has a moment of doubt, utterly determined. This doubt imagines there are several possible outcomes, but there aren't. Person decides to go to where they were always heading.
I understand that doubt can be related to a seeming couple of options, but that doesn't mean anything else was going to happen. Just like seeing an illusory oasis in the desert doesn't mean there were two possible futures one will an oasis one without.
Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
No, I am not interested in any sort of doubt related to the existence of God. By doubt, I mean that you are in a situation with two options and you don't know what to do because the outcomes of the choices are not clear to you, like buying a lottery ticket.Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:57 pmAtheists claim there is no god.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:58 pmWhat do you mean by all?Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:50 am
Ah, I see. Have you tried reframing the issue in all materialistic frameworks?
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Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
If it's a deterministic universe, yes.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:19 pmSo to you only one option is real and another one is an illusion?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:38 pmPerson walking utterly determined. Person has a moment of doubt, utterly determined. This doubt imagines there are several possible outcomes, but there aren't. Person decides to go to where they were always heading.
I understand that doubt can be related to a seeming couple of options, but that doesn't mean anything else was going to happen. Just like seeing an illusory oasis in the desert doesn't mean there were two possible futures one will an oasis one without.
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Re: Materialism: How doubt could be real?
I intelligo. Are you perhaps harkening back to Descartes' time? What more do you have to add to skepticism?bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:22 pmNo, I am not interested in any sort of doubt related to the existence of God. By doubt, I mean that you are in a situation with two options and you don't know what to do because the outcomes of the choices are not clear to you, like buying a lottery ticket.