Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:24 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:55 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:36 am

You are contradicting yourself.
No, you don't understand the basics.
You explained the basics but were not sharp enough to see how you were in contradiction and failed to relate it to the topic.
I already explained what I mean by vertical causation. It means that God constantly creates something into existence. No vertical causation then no billiard ball, no earth, no universe. Am I clear now? Now suppose that vertical causation is in the place which means that things exist. Now we could have horizontal causation in which things can move each other, for example, Earth can move a billiard ball.

And what I explained is related to the topic since we are dealing with the vertical causation of humans and I am questioning that humans cannot be free.
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Sculptor
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:24 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:55 am
No, you don't understand the basics.
You explained the basics but were not sharp enough to see how you were in contradiction and failed to relate it to the topic.
I already explained what I mean by vertical causation. It means that God constantly creates something into existence. No vertical causation then no billiard ball, no earth, no universe. Am I clear now? Now suppose that vertical causation is in the place which means that things exist. Now we could have horizontal causation in which things can move each other, for example, Earth can move a billiard ball.

And what I explained is related to the topic since we are dealing with the vertical causation of humans and I am questioning that humans cannot be free.
None of this is relevant
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:16 am
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:24 pm

You explained the basics but were not sharp enough to see how you were in contradiction and failed to relate it to the topic.
I already explained what I mean by vertical causation. It means that God constantly creates something into existence. No vertical causation then no billiard ball, no earth, no universe. Am I clear now? Now suppose that vertical causation is in the place which means that things exist. Now we could have horizontal causation in which things can move each other, for example, Earth can move a billiard ball.

And what I explained is related to the topic since we are dealing with the vertical causation of humans and I am questioning that humans cannot be free.
None of this is relevant
So, you don't understand.
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Sculptor
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:21 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:16 am
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:34 pm
I already explained what I mean by vertical causation. It means that God constantly creates something into existence. No vertical causation then no billiard ball, no earth, no universe. Am I clear now? Now suppose that vertical causation is in the place which means that things exist. Now we could have horizontal causation in which things can move each other, for example, Earth can move a billiard ball.

And what I explained is related to the topic since we are dealing with the vertical causation of humans and I am questioning that humans cannot be free.
None of this is relevant
So, you don't understand.
No you do not understand.
And until you draw this useless discussion back to the thread question you will not show otherwise.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:24 pm
It cannot be reached.
What do you mean by 'eternity cannot be reached'?
It means that no matter how long you wait you cannot reach it.
LOL So, this means 'yesterday' can NOT be reached, NOR could 100 years EVER be reached BECAUSE 'you', "bahman", no matter how long 'you' wait you can NOT reach 'it'.
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm Also, can the year 2,000,000 bc be reached?
Of course not. You need a way to go back in time. But the question is whether someone who lived in 2,000,000 BC can reach now.
And the answer is YES.
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:58 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:21 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:16 am

None of this is relevant
So, you don't understand.
No you do not understand.
And until you draw this useless discussion back to the thread question you will not show otherwise.
The title of OP is: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free? We are talking about vertical causation when something's existence depends on something else given the discussion we had.
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:16 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm
What do you mean by 'eternity cannot be reached'?
It means that no matter how long you wait you cannot reach it.
LOL So, this means 'yesterday' can NOT be reached, NOR could 100 years EVER be reached BECAUSE 'you', "bahman", no matter how long 'you' wait you can NOT reach 'it'.
I am talking about the eternal or infinite future rather than the finite future.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm Also, can the year 2,000,000 bc be reached?
Of course not. You need a way to go back in time. But the question is whether someone who lived in 2,000,000 BC can reach now.
And the answer is YES.
How about a person who lived in the infinite past? Could he reach now from the infinite past?
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Sculptor
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:58 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:21 am
So, you don't understand.
No you do not understand.
And until you draw this useless discussion back to the thread question you will not show otherwise.
The title of OP is: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free? We are talking about vertical causation when something's existence depends on something else given the discussion we had.
But vertical causation is a fantasy.
You are just comparing two fantasies with one another; free will and "vertical/horizontal causation", you are not asking any questions - you are just playing a semantic argument.

Obviously if god is keeping everything going then free will is rubbish. You don't need a special lexicon to know that.
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:58 am

No you do not understand.
And until you draw this useless discussion back to the thread question you will not show otherwise.
The title of OP is: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free? We are talking about vertical causation when something's existence depends on something else given the discussion we had.
But vertical causation is a fantasy.
How do you know? Do you have an argument against vertical causation?
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:10 pm You are just comparing two fantasies with one another; free will and "vertical/horizontal causation", you are not asking any questions - you are just playing a semantic argument.
I am not comparing free will and vertical/horizontal causation.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:10 pm Obviously if god is keeping everything going then free will is rubbish. You don't need a special lexicon to know that.
God does not keep everything going. He just holds things in existence. Things can then move freely on their own according to Catholic teaching.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:37 pm
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:16 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 am
It means that no matter how long you wait you cannot reach it.
LOL So, this means 'yesterday' can NOT be reached, NOR could 100 years EVER be reached BECAUSE 'you', "bahman", no matter how long 'you' wait you can NOT reach 'it'.
I am talking about the eternal or infinite future rather than the finite future.
The one that BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, does NOT exist, right?
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:37 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 am
Of course not. You need a way to go back in time. But the question is whether someone who lived in 2,000,000 BC can reach now.
And the answer is YES.
How about a person who lived in the infinite past? Could he reach now from the infinite past?
LOL That one is ALREADY HERE, NOW.

you REALLY DO NOT YET anyway have ANY REAL COMPREHENSION of what 'infinite' Truly ACTUALLY IS, do you?

MAYBE WHEN you STOP BELIEVING that 'it' does NOT exist, then you can come to COMPREHEND and UNDERSTAND what thee 'infinite Universe', which you live WITHIN, Truly IS, EXACTLY.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:58 am

No you do not understand.
And until you draw this useless discussion back to the thread question you will not show otherwise.
The title of OP is: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free? We are talking about vertical causation when something's existence depends on something else given the discussion we had.
But vertical causation is a fantasy.
You are just comparing two fantasies with one another; free will and "vertical/horizontal causation", you are not asking any questions - you are just playing a semantic argument.

Obviously if god is keeping everything going then free will is rubbish.
This could NOT be MORE Wrong AND False even if you wanted to make it.

But, then again, the posters and adult human beings of this day and age STILL had NOT YET WORKED OUT what the term and phrase 'free will' ACTUAL MEANT.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:10 pm You don't need a special lexicon to know that.
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:29 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:37 pm
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:16 pm

LOL So, this means 'yesterday' can NOT be reached, NOR could 100 years EVER be reached BECAUSE 'you', "bahman", no matter how long 'you' wait you can NOT reach 'it'.
I am talking about the eternal or infinite future rather than the finite future.
The one that BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, does NOT exist, right?
What?
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:29 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:37 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm

And the answer is YES.
How about a person who lived in the infinite past? Could he reach now from the infinite past?
LOL That one is ALREADY HERE, NOW.

you REALLY DO NOT YET anyway have ANY REAL COMPREHENSION of what 'infinite' Truly ACTUALLY IS, do you?

MAYBE WHEN you STOP BELIEVING that 'it' does NOT exist, then you can come to COMPREHEND and UNDERSTAND what thee 'infinite Universe', which you live WITHIN, Truly IS, EXACTLY.
Oh please, you cannot reach unreachable.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:40 pm
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:29 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:37 pm
I am talking about the eternal or infinite future rather than the finite future.
The one that BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, does NOT exist, right?
What?
you do BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, that the 'eternal or infinite future' does NOT exist, right?

Or, do you now BELIEVE that 'it' DOES exist?
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:40 pm
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:29 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:37 pm
How about a person who lived in the infinite past? Could he reach now from the infinite past?
LOL That one is ALREADY HERE, NOW.

you REALLY DO NOT YET anyway have ANY REAL COMPREHENSION of what 'infinite' Truly ACTUALLY IS, do you?

MAYBE WHEN you STOP BELIEVING that 'it' does NOT exist, then you can come to COMPREHEND and UNDERSTAND what thee 'infinite Universe', which you live WITHIN, Truly IS, EXACTLY.
Oh please, you cannot reach unreachable.
LOL you REALLY DO NOT YET, anyway, have ANY REAL COMPREHENSION of what 'you' ACTUALLY ARE, do you?
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:43 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:40 pm
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:29 pm

The one that BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, does NOT exist, right?
What?
you do BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, that the 'eternal or infinite future' does NOT exist, right?

Or, do you now BELIEVE that 'it' DOES exist?
Whether the future exists or not is a different topic. I am talking about an infinite future that cannot be reached given the definition of infinity.
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:29 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:40 pm
Age wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:29 pm

LOL That one is ALREADY HERE, NOW.

you REALLY DO NOT YET anyway have ANY REAL COMPREHENSION of what 'infinite' Truly ACTUALLY IS, do you?

MAYBE WHEN you STOP BELIEVING that 'it' does NOT exist, then you can come to COMPREHEND and UNDERSTAND what thee 'infinite Universe', which you live WITHIN, Truly IS, EXACTLY.
Oh please, you cannot reach unreachable.
LOL you REALLY DO NOT YET, anyway, have ANY REAL COMPREHENSION of what 'you' ACTUALLY ARE, do you?
What do you mean?
popeye1945
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:35 pm The free decision does not depend on (or is not reducible to) the current state of affairs (by the current state of affairs I mean the existence of something, a mental state for example which is about making a decision in a situation) that is reducible. The existence of something (the current state of affairs) which is reducible by definition depends on something else (this is the definition of reducible). Therefore something which is reducible cannot be free or something which is free is irreducible.

In compact form:

1) Freedom is not reducible to A that is reducible
2) A is reducible
3) Therefore, A cannot be free
There is no such thing as independent existence but even if there were one would need to ask free from what?
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