Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

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Sculptor
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:58 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:42 pm
Well, Catholics believe that the universe, including your body and soul, is sustained by God. They also believe that you are free. Here, I am providing an argument against their belief, God sustains you and you are free.
What Catholics believe or what you believe is meaningless.
Please give the example I asked for. re:"between two types of causation,"
Think of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Let me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:18 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:58 pm

What Catholics believe or what you believe is meaningless.
Please give the example I asked for. re:"between two types of causation,"
Think of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Let me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?
No, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:24 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:37 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:38 pm
Yes.
So, can eternity be reached or not?
It cannot be reached.
What do you mean by 'eternity cannot be reached'?

Also, can the year 2,000,000 bc be reached?
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:27 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:52 am Everything and everyone's existence depends on something else without exception.
That leads to an infinite regress.
And the term or phrase, 'infinite regress', when used in a way that ACTUALLY WORKS is NOT an issue NOR problem AT ALL here.
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:27 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:52 am What do you mean by the word "free"?
By free I mean that one option can be chosen disregarding preference for example.
We have ALREADY gone through this. AGAIN 'your' OWN personal definitions of words, terms, or phrases here are definitions do NOT WORK.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:39 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:27 pm
That leads to an infinite regress.
No really. Things die too.
What? How is that related to what I said?
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 pm

By free I mean that one option can be chosen disregarding preference for example.
That is a contradiction.
You say:
one option can be chosen disregarding preference for example.
which means the same as.
one can prefer an option disregarding choice for example.
or
I can chose a thing I did not want to chose.

It's not very helpful, nor is it any kind of definition.
It means that I can choose a thing I don't want to choose.
Talk about being ABSOLUTELY BLINDED and/or DELUDED by one's OWN ALREADY GAINED and OBTAINED BELIEF/S.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:24 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:39 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 pm
No really. Things die too.
What? How is that related to what I said?
IN a world where things have ending, regresses cannot be infinite.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 pm

That is a contradiction.
You say:
one option can be chosen disregarding preference for example.
which means the same as.
one can prefer an option disregarding choice for example.
or
I can chose a thing I did not want to chose.

It's not very helpful, nor is it any kind of definition.
It means that I can choose a thing I don't want to choose.
:D :D
But if you chose it, you have to have wanted to.
You can never really do something against your will unless someone is threatening you.
And even then you are NOT doing ANY thing AGAINST a so-called 'your will'.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:24 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:39 pm
What? How is that related to what I said?
IN a world where things have ending, regresses cannot be infinite.
I am talking about vertical causation rather than horizontal causation.
What do you propose is the ACTUAL difference here?
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:24 pm


It means that I can choose a thing I don't want to choose.
:D :D
But if you chose it, you have to have wanted to.
Yes, I choose it but for no specific reason.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 pm You can never really do something against your will unless someone is threatening you.
I can choose what I don't like for no specific reason. Can't you?
Will you GIVE us AN EXAMPLE now this time?

I have asked you BEFORE, but you keep REFUSING to provide ANY EXAMPLE AT ALL for this CLAIM of yours here.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:25 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:00 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pm
I am talking about vertical causation rather than horizontal causation.
That is gibberish.
All causality is multiplicitous. Nothing can have a single cause, so descriptors such as horizontal or vertical are meaningless.
There can be no regress. The arrow of time is unidirectional.
You don't understand the difference between two types of causation, vertical when something's existence depends on something else, and horizontal when something moves something else.
ONCE AGAIN "bahman" the more you 'try to' EXPLAIN, CLARIFY, or ELABORATE on what you have previously stated and claimed in your OWN threads the more you end up speaking FAR MORE CONFUSINGLY.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:25 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:00 pm


Yes, I choose it but for no specific reason.


I can choose what I don't like for no specific reason. Can't you?
No you cannot.
Yes I can.
LOL

Will you provide ANY example?
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:42 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:40 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:25 pm
You don't understand the difference between two types of causation, vertical when something's existence depends on something else, and horizontal when something moves something else.
What of it?
?
Give an example that relates to the matter at hand!
Well, Catholics believe that the universe, including your body and soul, is sustained by God. They also believe that you are free. Here, I am providing an argument against their belief, God sustains you and you are free.
But you are NOT providing ANY argument 'against' NOR 'for' absolutely ANY thing here.

All you are REALLY DOING here is just saying 'things', which you hope back up and support what you ALREADY BELIEVE is true.

But which you are absolutely FAILING at doing, ACTUALLY.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:58 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:42 pm
Well, Catholics believe that the universe, including your body and soul, is sustained by God. They also believe that you are free. Here, I am providing an argument against their belief, God sustains you and you are free.
What Catholics believe or what you believe is meaningless.
Please give the example I asked for. re:"between two types of causation,"
Think of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
ONCE AGAIN you are just speaking CONFUSINGLY.

The 'things' that you call 'sustain the billiard ball in existence' ALSO 'moved' that billiard ball, so what you call 'vertical causation' is ALSO what you call 'horizontal causation'.

Your introduction of the terms 'vertical and horizontal causation' are just ATTEMPTS at saying just about absolutely ANY thing in an EFFORT to 'try to' back up and support what you ALREADY BELIEVE is true, but which ACTUALLY can NEVER be backed up and supported because 'it' is NOT ACTUALLY true AT ALL.
Age
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:18 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Think of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Let me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?
No, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing.
WHEN will you LEARN that WHEN, and IF, you EVER provide ACTUAL EXAMPLES, THEN this WILL HELP you?

Or, do you NOT provide ANY ACTUAL EXAMPLES BECAUSE you can NOT find ANY? Considering the Fact that NONE ACTUALLY REALLY EXIST it is NOT surprising AT ALL that you do NOT provide ANY AT ALL.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pm They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things.
What does it matter what SOME people BELIEVE is true here?

'you', "bahman", OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE SOME 'things' are true here, which OBVIOUSLY they are NOT. But, AGAIN, what does it matter what 'you', or SOME people, BELIEVE is true here?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pm Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.
BUT, OBVIOUSLY, earth ALSO 'sustains' those 'moving' billiard balls.
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Sculptor
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:18 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Think of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Let me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?
No, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.
You are contradicting yourself.
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:24 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:37 am

So, can eternity be reached or not?
It cannot be reached.
What do you mean by 'eternity cannot be reached'?
It means that no matter how long you wait you cannot reach it.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:21 pm Also, can the year 2,000,000 bc be reached?
Of course not. You need a way to go back in time. But the question is whether someone who lived in 2,000,000 BC can reach now.
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bahman
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:36 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:18 pm

Let me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?
No, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.
You are contradicting yourself.
No, you don't understand the basics.
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Sculptor
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Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:55 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:36 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pm
No, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.
You are contradicting yourself.
No, you don't understand the basics.
You explained the basics but were not sharp enough to see how you were in contradiction and failed to relate it to the topic.
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