Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:33 am
For example my belief in God. I was Muslim first. Reading through Koran and discussing it with other people I had some doubts while I was still a believer. I hold on to both belief and doubt. I then tend to believe in Christianity. I then found an argument against Omniscient God. Later I found an argument against the act of creation from nothing. So I left Christianity aside. I refine my argument by discussing it with people here and there. So now, I found a foundation that I can stand on. So I am an atheist. No need to say I still believe in God/Gods who can create humans from something, or at least I have no argument against it yet. Well, if you think about it, if humans can be the by-product of evolution which is a random process that takes billions of years then how come a super-intelligent being with magnificent knowledge cannot create humans from something?
Oi vei! You too have fallen into the trap of ambiguous language - that loaded phrase "believe in". Let me land a helping hand.
Do you believe in democracy?
Yes and no. It depends on how well-educated are the people.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
Do you believe in love?
Yes, as I believe in hate.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
Do you believe in justice?
Yes, sure. Justice is about realizing what is right to do, good, or evil depending on the situation.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
Do you believe in fairness?
Sure. Fairness is about doing things in the right amounts. It requires proper judgment.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
Do you believe in morality?
Sure. Morality is about treating each other and yourself just and fair.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
Notice how the phrase "believe in" could be construed as something like "Do you want to mainifest democracy, love, justice, fairness, morality into the world?"
Notice how the phrase "Do you believe in God?" is construed to mean something entirely different. That's just idiosyncratic in my view.
Interpret the question in the exact same way you interpret it for democracy, justice, fairness, morality etc.
ALL of those ideas are abstract human constructs invented from nothing. That is how all creation/invention works. That is how ideation works.
To believe in God is to hold the desire to manifest God into existence.
To believe in God is to posess the desire to reify your understanding of God.
When I say that I believe in God I mean that I have faith that God exists. When I say that I don't think that God exists I mean that I have a reason against God.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
reification : the act of changing something abstract (existing as a thought or idea) into something real
God is not an ontological thing! Not yet anyway.
God is an abstract idea. Like democracy, love, justice, fairness etc. God is something we constantly strive for not something we already have.
Well, when I say I don't think that God exists I mean that God is not an ontological thing.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
And who doesn't want to reify God?
I don't. It is either real or not.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
It's just humanity's deep desire to reify Morality in a universe that has none.
That is good practice.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
The theist/atheist/agnostic game is all fucking nonse. The God we all believe in is not ontological. Not yet anyway. Not until the reification is completed (which is never - because it's an unattainable ideal).
If you are talking about the ontological god then the only rational position is agnosticism. The atheists are wrong in this regard. We don't know and we can't know. It's all speculation. If you want to play the ontological game - The SImulation hypothesis is all the fad now! God is the programmer of the simulation.
Once you land at this perspective you should have no problem realising that atheists and theists is merely a difference in vocabulary, but not a difference in belief.
Of course, they are different in belief.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
Atheists believe in God in exactly the same everyone else does. Atheists want to bring about a moral society - everybody does! The work is slow but progress is happening.
As to which denomination/ideology you choose - it doesn't matter. Pick the denomination of your community. If you are surrounded by atheists - be an atheist. If you are surrounded by Muslims - be a Muslim. If you are surrounded by Christians - be a Christian.
I disagree. I follow my own way that I think is right.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:28 pm
Or choose the God whose temperament and traits most closely resembles your own personality, and become absolutely unapologetic for holding that belief. Don't even feel the need/desire to defend it.
Philosophy has sure fucked everything up with this silly notion of justifying and arguing for one's beliefs and positions. Get the fuck out of here - I am no more going to justify my use of concepts than I am going to justify my use of a tooth brush. Freedom of thought is the only absolute right we have.
And lastly: make sure you read all of the scriptures metaphorically and not literally. Least you turn into a fundamentalist.
Apply the principle of charity gratuitously to everything you read in scripture and see the humanity of it all.
Metaphorically? What does stoning people to death mean metaphorically?