What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

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Flannel Jesus
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Flannel Jesus »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:39 pm It looks blue to them just as your blue looks blue to you! It is a matter of frequency perception, neither right nor wrong. The person called color blind simply perceives the frequency as different from the majority because the majority sets the standard. If he could set the standard, you would be the one that is color blind.
That's not remotely how it works
popeye1945
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by popeye1945 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:39 pm It looks blue to them just as your blue looks blue to you! It is a matter of frequency perception, neither right nor wrong. The person called color blind simply perceives the frequency as different from the majority because the majority sets the standard. If he could set the standard, you would be the one that is color blind.
That's not remotely how it works
Enlighten me!
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Flannel Jesus »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:47 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:39 pm It looks blue to them just as your blue looks blue to you! It is a matter of frequency perception, neither right nor wrong. The person called color blind simply perceives the frequency as different from the majority because the majority sets the standard. If he could set the standard, you would be the one that is color blind.
That's not remotely how it works
Enlighten me!
Colour blind people literally cannot distinguish between some colours that non colour blind people can. The reverse isn't true. Colour blind people can distinguish categorically fewer colours. It is a deficiency, it's not a matter of opinion because of the accident that non colour blind people are the majority.
popeye1945
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by popeye1945 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:07 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:47 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm

That's not remotely how it works
Enlighten me!
Colour blind people literally cannot distinguish between some colours that non colour blind people can. The reverse isn't true. Colour blind people can distinguish categorically fewer colours. It is a deficiency, it's not a matter of opinion because of the accident that non colour blind people are the majority.
It is simply a matter of perceptions, differing biologizes experience/perceive differently, yes, it is that simple.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Flannel Jesus »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:14 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:07 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:47 pm

Enlighten me!
Colour blind people literally cannot distinguish between some colours that non colour blind people can. The reverse isn't true. Colour blind people can distinguish categorically fewer colours. It is a deficiency, it's not a matter of opinion because of the accident that non colour blind people are the majority.
It is simply a matter of perceptions, differing biologizes experience/perceive differently, yes, it is that simple.
Yes, of course it's different. It's different, and colour blind people have a deficiency. They are lacking something non colour blind people are not lacking.

Another name for colour blindness is "colour vision deficiency". There's a reason for that.
popeye1945
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by popeye1945 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:27 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:14 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:07 pm

Colour blind people literally cannot distinguish between some colours that non colour blind people can. The reverse isn't true. Colour blind people can distinguish categorically fewer colours. It is a deficiency, it's not a matter of opinion because of the accident that non colour blind people are the majority.
It is simply a matter of perceptions, differing biologizes experience/perceive differently, yes, it is that simple.
Yes, of course it's different. It's different, and color-blind people have a deficiency. They are lacking something non color blind people are not lacking.

Another name for color blindness is "color vision deficiency". There's a reason for that.
Different does equate as deficient, the majority set the standard because it is most common perception of the species, how can it be wrong it's a frequency and biology is the mark and measure of all things. If his perception was the majority would your experience be wrong, no it would be different, but generally speaking those who see a frequency differently learn to call it by the name everyone calls it, that is why the difference is hard to identify.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Flannel Jesus »

No, if the world were run by the colour blind, it wouldn't switch to us being called colour blind and them being called normal. It should switch to them being called normal and us having some sort of super-sense, or enhanced vision.

Are you making these posts from your intuition without having read about it? It feels like this is just your intuitive opinion. It's fine as an intuitive opinion, but it's the sort of opinion that will disappear once you start reading about it.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Flannel Jesus »

At around 4.15 of this podcast he explains it pretty clearly:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0KCeLa ... Xzoaw_xO7A
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Flannel Jesus »

The first 5 minutes of this podcast gives an interesting narrative of the first scientific paper on colour blindness

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2DCwNg ... SvVreXq6cQ

The dude who wrote it was colour blind himself, and theorised that his eye was filled with some sort of blue fluid. He requested that his eye be dissected upon his death to confirm it, and it was dissected, and there was no fluid. They preserved his eye and, many decades later, we were able to figure out that his Green cones (or middle wavelength) were not fully functional.

Notice that he theorised a problem in his eye that would cause him to lack the ability to discern certain colours, with his theory about blue fluid. He wasn't claiming, argh, if people like me ruled the world I'd call all of you colour blind! No, he noticed that he was failing to distinguish colours other people were not talking to distinguish, and he looked for an explanation for that failing.
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iambiguous
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by iambiguous »

Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:23 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 pm
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:01 am

It wouldn't play. But I do know that anyway, though.
Of course, my own interest in this revolves around all of the other things our brains might be deceiving us regarding. For example, some argue that we are blind to the fact that human autonomy itself is created entirely in the brain.

I explore that myself here: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=198472
Well, there's quite a lot there, and I'm much more interested in practical questions such as how we perceive things. As for free will, it very much appears that we have it, so I'm quite happy to assume that we do.
Well, given that I always end up coming back around to what none of us really grasp regarding this...
All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.
...it still basically comes down to "your guess is as good as mine".

Anyway, I'm just really, really glad that you are back to posting again.
popeye1945
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by popeye1945 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:42 pm No, if the world were run by the colour blind, it wouldn't switch to us being called colour blind and them being called normal. It should switch to them being called normal and us having some sort of super-sense, or enhanced vision.

Are you making these posts from your intuition without having read about it? It feels like this is just your intuitive opinion. It's fine as an intuitive opinion, but it's the sort of opinion that will disappear once you start reading about it.
Are you going to try to convenience me that it is not simply a matter of different perceptions due to differences in one's biology? If you wish to do so try to do it in your own words. You do realize that in the real world, there are no colors -- yes? Color is a biological reaction to certain vibrations on the receptors in the eye, probably a little more complex than that, but that is it basically. There are no colors in the real world, just energy and vibrations of said energies.
Iwannaplato
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:42 pm No, if the world were run by the colour blind, it wouldn't switch to us being called colour blind and them being called normal. It should switch to them being called normal and us having some sort of super-sense, or enhanced vision.

Are you making these posts from your intuition without having read about it? It feels like this is just your intuitive opinion. It's fine as an intuitive opinion, but it's the sort of opinion that will disappear once you start reading about it.
Are you going to try to convenience me that it is not simply a matter of different perceptions due to differences in one's biology? If you wish to do so try to do it in your own words. You do realize that in the real world, there are no colors -- yes? Color is a biological reaction to certain vibrations on the receptors in the eye, probably a little more complex than that, but that is it basically. There are no colors in the real world, just energy and vibrations of said energies.
None of this contradicts what he's saying. If you quote parts of what he says, then present what you are countering those specific parts of his post with, you may notice this more easily.

And it doesn't matter, as far as what he is talking about that there are not colors in the world, color vision nevertheless allows humans (and animals) to discriminate between different things in the world. If you had someone with black and white vision (which can happen with a gray scale) that person is not able to disciminate as many things in the world as someone with the normal range of color vision.
Maia
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Maia »

iambiguous wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:11 pm
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:23 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 pm

Of course, my own interest in this revolves around all of the other things our brains might be deceiving us regarding. For example, some argue that we are blind to the fact that human autonomy itself is created entirely in the brain.

I explore that myself here: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=198472
Well, there's quite a lot there, and I'm much more interested in practical questions such as how we perceive things. As for free will, it very much appears that we have it, so I'm quite happy to assume that we do.
Well, given that I always end up coming back around to what none of us really grasp regarding this...
All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.
...it still basically comes down to "your guess is as good as mine".

Anyway, I'm just really, really glad that you are back to posting again.
Thanks. I can't guarantee I'll stick around on a permanent basis, though. We've been very busy at work, for example.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Flannel Jesus »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:42 pm No, if the world were run by the colour blind, it wouldn't switch to us being called colour blind and them being called normal. It should switch to them being called normal and us having some sort of super-sense, or enhanced vision.

Are you making these posts from your intuition without having read about it? It feels like this is just your intuitive opinion. It's fine as an intuitive opinion, but it's the sort of opinion that will disappear once you start reading about it.
Are you going to try to convenience me that it is not simply a matter of different perceptions due to differences in one's biology? If you wish to do so try to do it in your own words. You do realize that in the real world, there are no colors -- yes? Color is a biological reaction to certain vibrations on the receptors in the eye, probably a little more complex than that, but that is it basically. There are no colors in the real world, just energy and vibrations of said energies.
Taste doesn't exist in the world either, and yet if someone were missing the sensory input for, say, sweetness, most people would be fine with calling that a "deficiency".

You've come in here and said very confidently all sorts of stuff about colour blindness that you could only possibly say out of ignorance. This whole "say it in your own words" thing doesn't work, because it's not words that are the problem. No words I could say could stand in for the scientific facts about how colour blindness works. I could TELL you the facts, but, as has already been demonstrated, me telling you the facts produces no guarantee that you will accept the facts, which is why I'm encouraging you to cure your ignorance and read about it. You are already apparently not willing to budge just from words alone, which is fair enough, you need evidence. Evidence isn't here, my words cannot constitute the type of evidence that would be effective here, spend some time just reading the Wikipedia page and come back to the conversation a little less ignorant.

I've recommended two podcasts that give at least some amount of interesting background information, the second one talks about colour blindness much more than the first but they both have interesting things to say. They are brief overviews for laymen, obviously, and not a replacement for a university textbook or academic journals, but considering you want it in my words, I don't think you're looking to invest the time in a textbook or journals anyway, so perhaps a brief podcast is suitable.
Last edited by Flannel Jesus on Sun May 28, 2023 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: What does blue look like to a person who is colorblind

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 pm Are you going to try to convenience me that it is not simply a matter of different perceptions due to differences in one's biology? If you wish to do so try to do it in your own words. You do realize that in the real world, there are no colors -- yes? Color is a biological reaction to certain vibrations on the receptors in the eye, probably a little more complex than that, but that is it basically. There are no colors in the real world, just energy and vibrations of said energies.
And vibrations make waves. And waves encode signals. And signal processing is a branch of information theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_processing

And your brain is basically a meat computer doing signal processing on the vibrations of the world received from your various sensors.

None of which touches on the point that your brain can identify differences in vibrations.
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