Everything is Not a Thing

So what's really going on?

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popeye1945
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:02 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:30 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:26 pm

Then "energy" means everything and nothing.
Eodnhoj7,

You right on the money, there are only objects/things for biological consciousness, these are biological readouts of the alterations made by the world's energies to a conscious subject's biology. The nature of apparent reality is the interaction of these energies with biological consciousness. This is a reactionary response to energies on the part of all life forms. To further underline this statement, modern physics states it is all energy; there is nothing else, as counterintuitive as this may sound to you, this is how it is. This statement concerning apparent reality is the holy grail, biology is the measure and meaning of all things, and energies are only things/objects in relation to biological consciousness.
Biology is energy.
Agreed, your body is an object to you in the physical world and it is through the alterations made by the energies of the physical world/cosmos that your consciousness comes to know the world as your apparent reality. Just as there is no such thing in the physical world as sound or color, so too there are no objects, for they come into being through the same process as that of sound and color; they are the experiences of the alteration made upon and in your body which informs your consciousness. Everything is energy, including biology.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:02 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:30 pm

Eodnhoj7,

You right on the money, there are only objects/things for biological consciousness, these are biological readouts of the alterations made by the world's energies to a conscious subject's biology. The nature of apparent reality is the interaction of these energies with biological consciousness. This is a reactionary response to energies on the part of all life forms. To further underline this statement, modern physics states it is all energy; there is nothing else, as counterintuitive as this may sound to you, this is how it is. This statement concerning apparent reality is the holy grail, biology is the measure and meaning of all things, and energies are only things/objects in relation to biological consciousness.
Biology is energy.
Agreed, your body is an object to you in the physical world and it is through the alterations made by the energies of the physical world/cosmos that your consciousness comes to know the world as your apparent reality. Just as there is no such thing in the physical world as sound or color, so too there are no objects, for they come into being through the same process as that of sound and color; they are the experiences of the alteration made upon and in your body which informs your consciousness. Everything is energy, including biology.
I agree for the most part. Reality is thus the manifestation of forms through the self-relation of this universal energy. This self-relation necessitates this energy exhausting itself through the manifestation of all that is possible (all forms that can occur must occur).
Iwannaplato
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:02 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:54 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:28 pm And yet thoughts exist beyond thoughts.
The end of the finger is beyond the beginning of the finger, but they are not distinct. We made up these things. Same with thoughts. Actually examine that which you are calling thoughts. See if you can find an outline, edges, beginnings and ends.
The "beginning" and "end" are both distinctions. The change of thoughts necessitates beginning and ends to these very same thoughts as one thought contrasts to another.
I's useful conventions, that's it.
popeye1945
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:24 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:02 pm

Biology is energy.
Agreed, your body is an object to you in the physical world and it is through the alterations made by the energies of the physical world/cosmos that your consciousness comes to know the world as your apparent reality. Just as there is no such thing in the physical world as sound or color, so too there are no objects, for they come into being through the same process as that of sound and color; they are the experiences of the alteration made upon and in your body which informs your consciousness. Everything is energy, including biology.
I agree for the most part. Reality is thus the manifestation of forms through the self-relation of this universal energy. This self-relation necessitates this energy exhausting itself through the manifestation of all that is possible (all forms that can occur must occur).
I don't think we are quite on the same page here. There is a great deal of energy forms biology does not sense and that never manifest as objects for biological consciousness. Apparent reality for me depends on both the nature of the energy and the physical state of a biological being, the energy processed through biology becomes objects for the consciousness of subjects and only for biological subjects. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:08 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:02 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:54 am The end of the finger is beyond the beginning of the finger, but they are not distinct. We made up these things. Same with thoughts. Actually examine that which you are calling thoughts. See if you can find an outline, edges, beginnings and ends.
The "beginning" and "end" are both distinctions. The change of thoughts necessitates beginning and ends to these very same thoughts as one thought contrasts to another.
I's useful conventions, that's it.
If they are "useful conventions" then they are necessary for the "I" to exist and as such are inherently involved with its identity.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 3:32 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:24 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:19 pm

Agreed, your body is an object to you in the physical world and it is through the alterations made by the energies of the physical world/cosmos that your consciousness comes to know the world as your apparent reality. Just as there is no such thing in the physical world as sound or color, so too there are no objects, for they come into being through the same process as that of sound and color; they are the experiences of the alteration made upon and in your body which informs your consciousness. Everything is energy, including biology.
I agree for the most part. Reality is thus the manifestation of forms through the self-relation of this universal energy. This self-relation necessitates this energy exhausting itself through the manifestation of all that is possible (all forms that can occur must occur).
I don't think we are quite on the same page here. There is a great deal of energy forms biology does not sense and that never manifest as objects for biological consciousness. Apparent reality for me depends on both the nature of the energy and the physical state of a biological being, the energy processed through biology becomes objects for the consciousness of subjects and only for biological subjects. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects.
If "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" then "things/objects" are necessary for biology to occur if biology is to act at all. This is assuming biology needs to 'mean'. If it does then the things/objects are inseparable from biology and a blurry line occurs.

From another viewpoint 'Biology' is relative and as relative is empty in itself. This necessitates biology gains its act of being through things which are not biological thus reversing the perspective that "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" to "things/objects are the measure and the meaning all biologies".
socrat44
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by socrat44 »

Everything is Not a Thing
“Not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think.”
/Werner Heisenberg/
The ‘paradox’ is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality ‘ought to be’.
/Richard P. Feynman/
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popeye1945
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:42 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 3:32 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:24 pm

I agree for the most part. Reality is thus the manifestation of forms through the self-relation of this universal energy. This self-relation necessitates this energy exhausting itself through the manifestation of all that is possible (all forms that can occur must occur).
I don't think we are quite on the same page here. There is a great deal of energy forms biology does not sense and that never manifest as objects for biological consciousness. Apparent reality for me depends on both the nature of the energy and the physical state of a biological being, the energy processed through biology becomes objects for the consciousness of subjects and only for biological subjects. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects.
If "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" then "things/objects" are necessary for biology to occur if biology is to act at all. This is assuming biology needs to 'mean'. If it does then the things/objects are inseparable from biology and a blurry line occurs.
As far as we know biological consciousness is the only manifestation of object that is a sensing and a knowing object, but it only knows what is senses not what reality is, for reality it is said is energy. So, in response to the above, there are no objects, even your own body is not an object but an energy form, one that senses other energy forms in a very particular way, as objects.

From another viewpoint 'Biology' is relative and as relative is empty in itself. This necessitates biology gains its act of being through things which are not biological thus reversing the perspective that "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" to "things/objects are the measure and the meaning all biologies".
[/quote]

Interesting flip! The problem with that is as far as we know inanimate objects don't measure or possess meaning. Meaning for a biological subject is how the outside world alters its biology/body. It is an evaluation of effects and tells us little to nothing about the sources of the said effects upon the body/biology. Apparent reality is nothing but these effects upon the body, and it is an interpretation that only biology sees, it is not reality, it is an apparent something, which is nothing.
popeye1945
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:21 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:42 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 3:32 pm

I don't think we are quite on the same page here. There is a great deal of energy forms biology does not sense and that never manifest as objects for biological consciousness. Apparent reality for me depends on both the nature of the energy and the physical state of a biological being, the energy processed through biology becomes objects for the consciousness of subjects and only for biological subjects. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects.
If "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" then "things/objects" are necessary for biology to occur if biology is to act at all. This is assuming biology needs to 'mean'. If it does then the things/objects are inseparable from biology and a blurry line occurs.
As far as we know biological consciousness is the only manifestation of object that is a sensing and a knowing object, but it only knows what it senses not what reality is, for reality it is said is energy. So, in response to the above, there are no objects, even your own body is not an object but an energy form, one that senses other energy forms in a very particular way, as objects.

From another viewpoint 'Biology' is relative and as relative is empty in itself. This necessitates biology gains its act of being through things which are not biological thus reversing the perspective that "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" to "things/objects are the measure and the meaning all biologies".
Interesting flip! The problem with that is as far as we know inanimate objects don't measure or possess meaning. Meaning for a biological subject is how the outside world alters its biology/body. It is an evaluation of effects and tells us little to nothing about the sources of the said effects upon the body/biology. Apparent reality is nothing but these effects upon the body, and it is an interpretation that only biology sees or feels, it is not reality, it is an apparent something, which is nothing, as in no thing, just energy. It is what you might call self-simulation.
[/quote]
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:21 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:42 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 3:32 pm

I don't think we are quite on the same page here. There is a great deal of energy forms biology does not sense and that never manifest as objects for biological consciousness. Apparent reality for me depends on both the nature of the energy and the physical state of a biological being, the energy processed through biology becomes objects for the consciousness of subjects and only for biological subjects. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects.
If "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" then "things/objects" are necessary for biology to occur if biology is to act at all. This is assuming biology needs to 'mean'. If it does then the things/objects are inseparable from biology and a blurry line occurs.
As far as we know biological consciousness is the only manifestation of object that is a sensing and a knowing object, but it only knows what is senses not what reality is, for reality it is said is energy. So, in response to the above, there are no objects, even your own body is not an object but an energy form, one that senses other energy forms in a very particular way, as objects.

From another viewpoint 'Biology' is relative and as relative is empty in itself. This necessitates biology gains its act of being through things which are not biological thus reversing the perspective that "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" to "things/objects are the measure and the meaning all biologies".
Interesting flip! The problem with that is as far as we know inanimate objects don't measure or possess meaning. Meaning for a biological subject is how the outside world alters its biology/body. It is an evaluation of effects and tells us little to nothing about the sources of the said effects upon the body/biology. Apparent reality is nothing but these effects upon the body, and it is an interpretation that only biology sees, it is not reality, it is an apparent something, which is nothing.
[/quote]

It can be argued that consciousness does not possess measure or meaning as this 'measure/meaning' is indefinite as subject to infinite regress of justifications.

From another perspective is may be argued that things do possess measure and meaning as they are what allow the reflection necessary for consciousness to occur.

It can be seen in a multitude of ways and we are left with contradiction. At best I am using arguments in a way that they result in absurdity as a proof, emphasis on "a proof" not "the proof", that we know very little about the nature of reality....that is the gist of what I am saying; we cannot create rational categories without contradiction.
popeye1945
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:23 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:21 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:42 pm

If "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" then "things/objects" are necessary for biology to occur if biology is to act at all. This is assuming biology needs to 'mean'. If it does then the things/objects are inseparable from biology and a blurry line occurs.
As far as we know biological consciousness is the only manifestation of object that is a sensing and a knowing object, but it only knows what is senses not what reality is, for reality it is said is energy. So, in response to the above, there are no objects, even your own body is not an object but an energy form, one that senses other energy forms in a very particular way, as objects.

From another viewpoint 'Biology' is relative and as relative is empty in itself. This necessitates biology gains its act of being through things which are not biological thus reversing the perspective that "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" to "things/objects are the measure and the meaning all biologies".
Interesting flip! The problem with that is as far as we know inanimate objects don't measure or possess meaning. Meaning for a biological subject is how the outside world alters its biology/body. It is an evaluation of effects and tells us little to nothing about the sources of the said effects upon the body/biology. Apparent reality is nothing but these effects upon the body, and it is an interpretation that only biology sees, it is not reality, it is an apparent something, which is nothing. A self-simulation.
It can be argued that consciousness does not possess measure or meaning as this 'measure/meaning' is indefinite as subject to infinite regress of justifications. [/quote]

Sorry, I can make any sense of the above.

From another perspective it may be argued that things do possess measure and meaning as they are what allow the reflection necessary for consciousness to occur. [/quote]

Yes, the union of subject and object is an apparent reality. The conscious subject is the only aspect that possesses meaning and all meaning is subjective until the said subject bestows meaning on a meaningless world. In the absence of a conscious subject the world is necessarily meaningless. All meaning is subjective and it is subjective because it is how outside energies alter the biology of the subject, again it is self-stimulation.

It can be seen in a multitude of ways and we are left with contradiction. At best I am using arguments in a way that they result in absurdity as a proof, emphasis on "a proof" not "the proof", that we know very little about the nature of reality.... that is the gist of what I am saying; we cannot create rational categories without contradiction.
[/quote]

Again, I can make no sense of your above statement. What it seems like is your blowing smoke.
Advocate
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Advocate »

Every thing is a set of attributes and boundary conditions in a mind. Whether it has external existence is a separate question. That which has external existence but not internal existence is undifferentiated stuff, not things.

Everything may include undifferentiated stuff, but every Thing is only patterns.
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Sculptor
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

Given the wide ranging set of definitions for the word "THING" your statement is false.
"everything" does comply with several point of definition here...

thing
[θɪŋ]
NOUN
thing (noun) · things (plural noun) · a thing (noun) · the thing (noun) · one's thing (noun) · one's things (plural noun)
an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to:
"look at that metal rail thing over there" · "there are lots of things I'd like to buy"
synonyms:
object · article · item · artefact · commodity · device · gadget · contrivance · instrument · utensil · tool · implement · entity · body
(things)
personal belongings or clothing:
"she began to unpack her things"
synonyms:
belongings · possessions · stuff · property · worldly goods · goods · personal effects · effects · paraphernalia · impedimenta · bits and pieces · bits and bobs · luggage · baggage · bags · bags and baggage · chattels · movables · valuables · clothes · garments · goods and chattels · dunnage
(things)
equipment, utensils, or other objects used for a particular purpose:
"they cleared away the lunch things"
synonyms:
equipment · apparatus · gear · kit · tackle · stuff · implements · tools · utensils · accoutrements
(a thing)
anything (used for emphasis):
"she couldn't find a thing to wear"
used to express one's disapproval of or contempt for something:
"you won't find me smoking those filthy things"
(things)
all that can be described in the specified way:
"his love for all things English"
used euphemistically to refer to a man's penis.
an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being:
"I'm not a thing, not a work of art to be cherished"
a living creature or plant:
"the sea is the primal source of all living things on earth"
used to express one's feelings of pity, affection, approval, or contempt for a person or animal:
"have a nice weekend in the country, you lucky thing!" · "the lamb was a puny little thing"
synonyms:
person · soul · creature · wretch
an action, event, thought, or utterance:
"she said the first thing that came into her head" · "the only thing I could do well was cook"
synonyms:
activity · act · action · deed · undertaking · exploit · feat · task · job · chore · piece of business · thought · notion · idea · concept · conception · concern · matter · worry · preoccupation · remark · statement · comment · utterance · observation · declaration · pronouncement · incident · episode · event · happening · occurrence · eventuality · phenomenon
(things)
circumstances or matters that are unspecified:
"things haven't gone entirely to plan" · "how are things with you?"
synonyms:
matters · affairs · circumstances · conditions · relations · state of affairs · situation · life
an abstract entity, quality, or concept:
"mourning and depression are not the same thing" · "they had one thing in common—they were men of action"
synonyms:
characteristic · quality · attribute · property · trait · feature · point · aspect · facet · element · fact · piece of information · detail · particular · factor
an example or type of something:
"the game is the latest thing in family fun"
informal
a situation or activity of a specified type or quality:
"your being here is just a friendship thing, OK?"
synonyms:
matters · affairs · circumstances · conditions · relations · state of affairs · situation · life
informal
a romantic or sexual relationship:
"Phil and Lisa had been having a thing"
informal
an established or genuine phenomenon or practice (typically used in expressions registering surprise or incredulity):
"according to media reports, sleep texting is now a thing among serious smartphone addicts" · "he looks like he's wearing boxers underneath his trunks (is that a thing?)"
informal
(the thing)
what is needed or required:
"you need a tonic—and here's just the thing"
what is socially acceptable or fashionable:
"it wouldn't be quite the thing to go to a royal garden party in wellies"
synonyms:
fashionable · in fashion · in vogue · popular · all the rage · le dernier cri
informal
(one's thing)
one's special interest or inclination:
"reading isn't my thing"
synonyms:
what one likes · what interests one
informal
(the thing)
used to introduce or emphasize an important point:
"the thing is, I am going to sell this house" · "here's the thing: this is a story, not a piece of hard news" · "that's the thing about style—no two people are completely alike"
synonyms:
fact of the matter · fact · point · issue · problem
ORIGIN
Old English, of Germanic origin; related to German Ding. Early senses included ‘meeting’ and ‘matter, concern’ as well as ‘inanimate object’.
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Sculptor
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

PS "Things" can be unreal
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:32 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:23 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:21 pm

As far as we know biological consciousness is the only manifestation of object that is a sensing and a knowing object, but it only knows what is senses not what reality is, for reality it is said is energy. So, in response to the above, there are no objects, even your own body is not an object but an energy form, one that senses other energy forms in a very particular way, as objects.

From another viewpoint 'Biology' is relative and as relative is empty in itself. This necessitates biology gains its act of being through things which are not biological thus reversing the perspective that "biology is the measure and the meaning of all things/objects" to "things/objects are the measure and the meaning all biologies".
Interesting flip! The problem with that is as far as we know inanimate objects don't measure or possess meaning. Meaning for a biological subject is how the outside world alters its biology/body. It is an evaluation of effects and tells us little to nothing about the sources of the said effects upon the body/biology. Apparent reality is nothing but these effects upon the body, and it is an interpretation that only biology sees, it is not reality, it is an apparent something, which is nothing. A self-simulation.
It can be argued that consciousness does not possess measure or meaning as this 'measure/meaning' is indefinite as subject to infinite regress of justifications.
Sorry, I can make any sense of the above.

From another perspective it may be argued that things do possess measure and meaning as they are what allow the reflection necessary for consciousness to occur. [/quote]

Yes, the union of subject and object is an apparent reality. The conscious subject is the only aspect that possesses meaning and all meaning is subjective until the said subject bestows meaning on a meaningless world. In the absence of a conscious subject the world is necessarily meaningless. All meaning is subjective and it is subjective because it is how outside energies alter the biology of the subject, again it is self-stimulation.

It can be seen in a multitude of ways and we are left with contradiction. At best I am using arguments in a way that they result in absurdity as a proof, emphasis on "a proof" not "the proof", that we know very little about the nature of reality.... that is the gist of what I am saying; we cannot create rational categories without contradiction.
[/quote]

Again, I can make no sense of your above statement. What it seems like is your blowing smoke.
[/quote]

1. For consciousness to justify something it requires reasoning. This reasoning needs further reasoning beyond this and further reasoning beyond this and it goes on ad-infinitum. This infinite regress, because of infinity, leaves the justification indefinite.

2. If all meaning is subjective then all meaning is relative thus all meaning is simultaneously true and false.

3. The first point I address is that consciousness does not possess measure or meaning as this measure or meaning requires an infinite regress of one thing meaning another then another then another, this is indefinite. My second point is that things, which are not conscious, allow for meaning within the consciousness as they are what allow the consciousness to reflect. Under the first point consciousness is without meaning, under the second point it has meaning. This is a contradiction and this contradiction points to the absurdity of categorizing things.
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