Everything is Not a Thing

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:59 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:44 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:46 am

Either way "everything" is a thing.
To be charitable what he is trying for is Russel's paradox; Can a set of all things be in a set of itself.
To present the question would mean the set all is self-conscious about itself.
Please demonstrate.
The person presenting the question would of necessity be part of the all/the totality, therefore it is inquiring about itself.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:02 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:59 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:44 pm

To present the question would mean the set all is self-conscious about itself.
Please demonstrate.
The person presenting the question would of necessity be part of the all/the totality, therefore it is inquiring about itself.
I see what you are aying, but.. the individual is but a tiny part of the whole - almost insignificantly so. If a testical asks about the body, its only asking about the place it is a part of, not about "itself".
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:46 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:07 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:49 pm
Not true.
You just have to know the context.

You are clearly very confused.

QED my last statement.

No,. It's all about context.
If it were an illusion or meaningless, then I'd not be able to address your points separately.

It does not invalidate the concept just because it has uniqueness.
I think Eodnhodj is talking about the absolute whole(which is nearly unimaginable) and Sculptor is talking about relative wholes.
Either way "everything" is a thing.
To be charitable what he is trying for is Russel's paradox; Can a set of all things be in a set of itself.
The set of all things is a set of itself , because the set of all things (like other sets)has a unique defining attribute: the unique defining attribute of the set of all things is the set of all things is cause of itself.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:30 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:02 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:59 pm

Please demonstrate.
The person presenting the question would of necessity be part of the all/the totality, therefore it is inquiring about itself.
I see what you are saying, but... The individual is but a tiny part of the whole - almost insignificantly so. If a testicle asks about the body, its only asking about the place it is a part of, not about "itself".
Start taking parts away from any whole and it is no longer the same whole.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:46 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:07 am

I think Eodnhodj is talking about the absolute whole(which is nearly unimaginable) and Sculptor is talking about relative wholes.
Either way "everything" is a thing.
To be charitable what he is trying for is Russel's paradox; Can a set of all things be in a set of itself.
The set of all things is a set of itself , because the set of all things (like other sets)has a unique defining attribute: the unique defining attribute of the set of all things is the set of all things is cause of itself.
What do you call the set of thing that contains the set of all things?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:54 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:30 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:02 pm

The person presenting the question would of necessity be part of the all/the totality, therefore it is inquiring about itself.
I see what you are saying, but... The individual is but a tiny part of the whole - almost insignificantly so. If a testicle asks about the body, its only asking about the place it is a part of, not about "itself".
Start taking parts away from any whole and it is no longer the same whole.
What's your point?
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:01 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:54 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:30 pm

I see what you are saying, but... The individual is but a tiny part of the whole - almost insignificantly so. If a testicle asks about the body, its only asking about the place it is a part of, not about "itself".
Start taking parts away from any whole and it is no longer the same whole.
What's your point?
The point is you do not know what you are part of, thus the speculation!
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:18 am
Location: Germany

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Consul »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:00 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:46 am Either way "everything" is a thing.
To be charitable what he is trying for is Russel's paradox; Can a set of all things be in a set of itself.
The set of all things is a set of itself , because the set of all things (like other sets)has a unique defining attribute: the unique defining attribute of the set of all things is the set of all things is cause of itself.
What do you call the set of thing that contains the set of all things?
In standard set theory known as Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory
"There is no set of all sets: that, we know, is a consequence of Russell’s paradox (at any rate if we assume separation). But Russell’s paradox does not prevent there being something else—a class of all sets—which is an extensional entity behaving in some respects as sets do. Theories of sets may thus be categorized according to whether they countenance such entities."

(Potter, Michael. Set Theory and its Philosophy. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004. p. 312)
There is a class of all sets in an alternative set theory known as von Neumann-Bernays-Gödel set theory: Class theory over ZFC
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:02 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:01 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:54 pm

Start taking parts away from any whole and it is no longer the same whole.
What's your point?
The point is you do not know what you are part of, thus the speculation!
That dos not relate to what you said.
So, how does your new point relate to the thread?
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:28 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:02 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:01 pm

What's your point?
The point is you do not know what you are part of, thus the speculation!
That does not relate to what you said.
So, how does your new point relate to the thread?
Ok, perhaps I am a little off course. Your statement about the lonely testicle inquiring about the body, the totality as far as it is concerned. You said it wasn't wondering about itself, but it you are a functional part and at the same time dependent on the whole it is you. As a multicellular organism, the legion is oneself. Part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts, and the whole is cause to the cell as the cell reacts to the whole, while its reactions are in effect cause to the whole. This is the same principle I was putting forth in another thread, it is relevant here. To the cell, the whole is cause to the cell's response/reaction. Just as all organisms are reactionary creatures to the physical world as cause. Just as evolutionary adaptation is dependent upon the reactive nature of all organisms reacting to the physical world as cause. So, we are in the same situation as the lonely testicle in relation to the earth and the cosmos. Do you find this more relevant?
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:28 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:02 pm

The point is you do not know what you are part of, thus the speculation!
That does not relate to what you said.
So, how does your new point relate to the thread?
Ok, perhaps I am a little off course. Your statement about the lonely testicle inquiring about the body, the totality as far as it is concerned. You said it wasn't wondering about itself, but it you are a functional part and at the same time dependent on the whole it is you. As a multicellular organism, the legion is oneself. Part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts, and the whole is cause to the cell as the cell reacts to the whole, while its reactions are in effect cause to the whole. This is the same principle I was putting forth in another thread, it is relevant here. To the cell, the whole is the cause to the cell's response/reaction. Just as all organisms are reactionary creatures to the physical world as cause. Just as evolutionary adaptation is dependent upon the reactive nature of all organisms reacting to the physical world as cause. So, we are in the same situation as the lonely testicle in relation to the earth and the cosmos. An added thought, it is my belief, that things/objects are energy forms particular to the experiences of biological forms, read, particular to them, one energy form manifesting the effects of surrounding energy forms. For as science now tells us, it is all energy. Objects are how certain energies affect us.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:28 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:02 pm

The point is you do not know what you are part of, thus the speculation!
That does not relate to what you said.
So, how does your new point relate to the thread?
Ok, perhaps I am a little off course. Your statement about the lonely testicle inquiring about the body, the totality as far as it is concerned. You said it wasn't wondering about itself, but it you are a functional part and at the same time dependent on the whole it is you. As a multicellular organism, the legion is oneself. Part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts, and the whole is cause to the cell as the cell reacts to the whole, while its reactions are in effect cause to the whole. This is the same principle I was putting forth in another thread, it is relevant here. To the cell, the whole is cause to the cell's response/reaction. Just as all organisms are reactionary creatures to the physical world as cause. Just as evolutionary adaptation is dependent upon the reactive nature of all organisms reacting to the physical world as cause. So, we are in the same situation as the lonely testicle in relation to the earth and the cosmos. Do you find this more relevant?
Yes, I got all that. This would apply to any thing larger than the object of enquiry, and it would still have to be a thing, ragardless of the objections of the thread question.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:49 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:28 pm
That does not relate to what you said.
So, how does your new point relate to the thread?
Ok, perhaps I am a little off course. Your statement about the lonely testicle inquiring about the body, the totality as far as it is concerned. You said it wasn't wondering about itself, but it you are a functional part and at the same time dependent on the whole it is you. As a multicellular organism, the legion is oneself. Part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts, and the whole is cause to the cell as the cell reacts to the whole, while its reactions are in effect cause to the whole. This is the same principle I was putting forth in another thread, it is relevant here. To the cell, the whole is cause to the cell's response/reaction. Just as all organisms are reactionary creatures to the physical world as cause. Just as evolutionary adaptation is dependent upon the reactive nature of all organisms reacting to the physical world as cause. So, we are in the same situation as the lonely testicle in relation to the earth and the cosmos. Do you find this more relevant?
Yes, I got all that. This would apply to anything larger than the object of enquiry, and it would still have to be a thing, regardless of the objections of the thread question.
The title may be right, for the totality may not be a system but the source of all systems, as far as we know in our everyday reality all things are systems, but is the totality itself a system? Perhaps the totality is endless, and still not a system, just a cauldron of energies.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by Sculptor »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:27 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:49 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:26 pm

Ok, perhaps I am a little off course. Your statement about the lonely testicle inquiring about the body, the totality as far as it is concerned. You said it wasn't wondering about itself, but it you are a functional part and at the same time dependent on the whole it is you. As a multicellular organism, the legion is oneself. Part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts, and the whole is cause to the cell as the cell reacts to the whole, while its reactions are in effect cause to the whole. This is the same principle I was putting forth in another thread, it is relevant here. To the cell, the whole is cause to the cell's response/reaction. Just as all organisms are reactionary creatures to the physical world as cause. Just as evolutionary adaptation is dependent upon the reactive nature of all organisms reacting to the physical world as cause. So, we are in the same situation as the lonely testicle in relation to the earth and the cosmos. Do you find this more relevant?
Yes, I got all that. This would apply to anything larger than the object of enquiry, and it would still have to be a thing, regardless of the objections of the thread question.
The title may be right, for the totality may not be a system but the source of all systems, as far as we know in our everyday reality all things are systems, but is the totality itself a system? Perhaps the totality is endless, and still not a system, just a cauldron of energies.
There are no systems, excpet those we decide are of interest to us.
The totality contains all, and all acts to its nature.
"System" is just condensation of items where causal interactions interest us, and which lead to outcomes of interest to us.
But these are not objectively systematic.
We have in interest in the causality which led to life and the appearance of humans, but to imply it was a system is a conceit about purpose.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Everything is Not a Thing

Post by popeye1945 »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:45 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:27 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:49 am

Yes, I got all that. This would apply to anything larger than the object of enquiry, and it would still have to be a thing, regardless of the objections of the thread question.
The title may be right, for the totality may not be a system but the source of all systems, as far as we know in our everyday reality all things are systems, but is the totality itself a system? Perhaps the totality is endless, and still not a system, just a cauldron of energies.
There are no systems, excpet those we decide are of interest to us.
The totality contains all, and all acts to its nature.
"System" is just condensation of items where causal interactions interest us, and which lead to outcomes of interest to us.
But these are not objectively systematic.
We have in interest in the causality which led to life and the appearance of humans, but to imply it was a system is a conceit about purpose.
Name me something that is not a system.
Post Reply