The Truth Contradiction

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:57 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:32 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:49 am

Living things are different in structure and form, not in essence, the difference in structure and form means differing sensory apparatus thus a differing apparent reality but all apparent reality is true to the biology that experiences it. This difference in structure and form I contend does not affect the sense of I of the given organism. I is essential for the survival of all organisms.
The "I" as universal is the "I" without comparison thus is no-thingness. We know the "I" is universal, even though it is biological, in the respect that biological and the non-biological depend on each other for being....they are a false dichotomy.
Thingness is the object of the interdependence of subject and object. The subject being the way the world comes to know itself through itself. It is like you say, a false dichotomy in that there is no separation of subject and object, but as far as we know all knowing/all meaning is the property of the subject and as such, is capable of bestowing meaning upon a meaningless world.
And yet we are composed of that which is meaningless. The opposites of meaning and no-meaning are necessary for contrast to occur, this contrast is necessary for distinction and distinction is necessary for form. It is because of contradiction that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:19 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:44 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:31 pm
The apple and orange contrast, they are different and not the other in many respects.
That is not a contradiction. That is, as you say, contrast. Contraditions are where something is unture.

For example, your sentence above contains words that contrast with each other, but your sentence is not a contradiction...or?
The absence of the truth of the orange found in the truth in the apple is not only a contrast but a contradiction. Contradiction is difference and difference is opposition as one thing stands as distinct from another.
Sounds like an extremely conformist idealogy.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Trajk Logik »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:20 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:59 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:34 pm

It is both 'snowing' and 'not-snowing' on planet earth, under a large enough context the contrasting opposites are one and nothing because of it.
How is, "It is both 'snowing' and 'not-snowing' on planet earth, " even a useful statement? It seems to me that you're not enlarging the context rather you're using the wrong context. It only snows or doesn't snow in certain places on Earth, not on the whole planet, UNLESS the Earth is in an Ice Age or runaway greenhouse effect. Again, context matters if you intend to say anything useful.

Just because you followed the rules of some language doesn't mean you've said anything useful or meaningful. The scribbles you write need to invoke a visual, auditory, etc. image in the readers mind. If it doesn't, like a contradiction, then you've effectively said nothing at all. You only put scribbles on the screen.
Under a large enough context contradictions occur, i.e. opposing things. "Planet earth" is a larger context.
Contradictions only occur within narrow scopes of space-time. A married man cannot occupy the same phyisical, or mental, space-time as a bachelor. If we have two seperate men, one being married and the other a bachelor then there is no contradiction. So your snowing on Earth example is only a contradition if it were snowing and not snowing in the same area and the same time on Earth.

Contradictions stem from language. Did humans have or could they have thought of contradictions before language? Contradictions are just a misuse of language.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Trajk Logik »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:21 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:57 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:32 pm

The "I" as universal is the "I" without comparison thus is no-thingness. We know the "I" is universal, even though it is biological, in the respect that biological and the non-biological depend on each other for being....they are a false dichotomy.
Thingness is the object of the interdependence of subject and object. The subject being the way the world comes to know itself through itself. It is like you say, a false dichotomy in that there is no separation of subject and object, but as far as we know all knowing/all meaning is the property of the subject and as such, is capable of bestowing meaning upon a meaningless world.
And yet we are composed of that which is meaningless. The opposites of meaning and no-meaning are necessary for contrast to occur, this contrast is necessary for distinction and distinction is necessary for form. It is because of contradiction that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meaning exists wherever causes leave effects. We are both the effects of natural causes and the causes of "artificial" effects in the world. So we are both composed of meaning, or the result of meaningful processes, and create our own meanings through the effects we leave in the world.

Contradictions are only a specific type of difference. The one thing that contradictory objects seem to share is location in space-time, as that is what makes them a contradiction in that they differ in all properties except for their location in space-time, as if an object that is an apple and not an apple could occupy the same location in space-time. It is because of variation and evolution of causes and effects that we are able to see and manifest forms.
popeye1945
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by popeye1945 »

Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:21 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:57 am

Thingness is the object of the interdependence of subject and object. The subject being the way the world comes to know itself through itself. It is like you say, a false dichotomy in that there is no separation of subject and object, but as far as we know all knowing/all meaning is the property of the subject and as such, is capable of bestowing meaning upon a meaningless world.
And yet we are composed of that which is meaningless. The opposites of meaning and no-meaning are necessary for contrast to occur, this contrast is necessary for distinction and distinction is necessary for form. It is because of contradiction that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meaning exists wherever causes leave effects. We are both the effects of natural causes and the causes of "artificial" effects in the world. So we are both composed of meaning, or the result of meaningful processes, and create our own meanings through the effects we leave in the world.

Contradictions are only a specific type of difference. The one thing that contradictory objects seem to share is location in space-time, as that is what makes them a contradiction in that they differ in all properties except for their location in space-time, as if an object that is an apple and not an apple could occupy the same location in space-time. It is because of variation and evolution of causes and effects that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meanings are what alters the physical body of the subject in the relation of subject and object. The physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject, and thus, it is to this conscious subject that all experiences/meanings belong. At this point the subject is in a position to attribute meanings upon a meaningless world; biology being the measure and meaning of all things. There is only meaning to a biological subject, never is it the property of the physical world or object. Meaning/s are what pertains to a biological subject/consciousness, or that which alters one's biology as experience is meaning is consciousness and, in this way, that which alters one's biology becomes known to biological consciousness.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Trajk Logik »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:56 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:21 pm

And yet we are composed of that which is meaningless. The opposites of meaning and no-meaning are necessary for contrast to occur, this contrast is necessary for distinction and distinction is necessary for form. It is because of contradiction that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meaning exists wherever causes leave effects. We are both the effects of natural causes and the causes of "artificial" effects in the world. So we are both composed of meaning, or the result of meaningful processes, and create our own meanings through the effects we leave in the world.

Contradictions are only a specific type of difference. The one thing that contradictory objects seem to share is location in space-time, as that is what makes them a contradiction in that they differ in all properties except for their location in space-time, as if an object that is an apple and not an apple could occupy the same location in space-time. It is because of variation and evolution of causes and effects that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meanings are what alters the physical body of the subject in the relation of subject and object. The physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject, and thus, it is to this conscious subject that all experiences/meanings belong. At this point the subject is in a position to attribute meanings upon a meaningless world; biology being the measure and meaning of all things. There is only meaning to a biological subject, never is it the property of the physical world or object. Meaning/s are what pertains to a biological subject/consciousness, or that which alters one's biology as experience is meaning is consciousness and, in this way, that which alters one's biology becomes known to biological consciousness.
With meaning being the relationship between causes and their effects, meaning is everywhere in the "physical" world. You described meaning as the cause of what alters the "physical" body, but seem to make this unwarranted distinction between body and subject, or world and subject. I don't know what the the distinction between "physical" and "subject" is, or even what these words mean or refer to.

Meaning is everywhere causes leave effects. The world is utterly VALUELESS, or USELESS, in the absence of a conscious being, not meaningless. A causal relation (meaning) is only useful, or valuable when integrated with the goal(s) of conscious beings. Some causal relation is not useful/valuable on realizing one goal but might be in realizing another. This doesn't mean that they are meaningless, just not useful, or valuable for obtaining a particular goal. We do not attribute meanings upon a meaningless world or object. We attribute (project) value, or usefulness, to a valueless world or object.
popeye1945
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by popeye1945 »

What do you make of the statement that the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject? Are meanings just lying around like apples fallen from a tree? You tell me how one comes to know the world and give me a few examples of meanings that are just laying around littering the place. It would help you to understand the relation between subject and object, that relation is your apparent reality. All experience knowledge and meanings belong only to the conscious subject never to the object or the physical world as object.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:55 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:19 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:44 pm That is not a contradiction. That is, as you say, contrast. Contraditions are where something is unture.

For example, your sentence above contains words that contrast with each other, but your sentence is not a contradiction...or?
The absence of the truth of the orange found in the truth in the apple is not only a contrast but a contradiction. Contradiction is difference and difference is opposition as one thing stands as distinct from another.
Sounds like an extremely conformist idealogy.
There are many truths and these truths contain phenomena other truths do not, these phenomena are truths within truths. This absence of one truth found in another truth necessitates contrast.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:04 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:20 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:59 pm
How is, "It is both 'snowing' and 'not-snowing' on planet earth, " even a useful statement? It seems to me that you're not enlarging the context rather you're using the wrong context. It only snows or doesn't snow in certain places on Earth, not on the whole planet, UNLESS the Earth is in an Ice Age or runaway greenhouse effect. Again, context matters if you intend to say anything useful.

Just because you followed the rules of some language doesn't mean you've said anything useful or meaningful. The scribbles you write need to invoke a visual, auditory, etc. image in the readers mind. If it doesn't, like a contradiction, then you've effectively said nothing at all. You only put scribbles on the screen.
Under a large enough context contradictions occur, i.e. opposing things. "Planet earth" is a larger context.
Contradictions only occur within narrow scopes of space-time. A married man cannot occupy the same phyisical, or mental, space-time as a bachelor. If we have two seperate men, one being married and the other a bachelor then there is no contradiction. So your snowing on Earth example is only a contradition if it were snowing and not snowing in the same area and the same time on Earth.

Contradictions stem from language. Did humans have or could they have thought of contradictions before language? Contradictions are just a misuse of language.
And yet language is a phenomenon found in the real world. Given everything that is distinct is connected to a language all distinctions are contradictory because of said contrast expressed in other posts. The fact that distinctions are made necessitates contradiction.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:21 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:57 am

Thingness is the object of the interdependence of subject and object. The subject being the way the world comes to know itself through itself. It is like you say, a false dichotomy in that there is no separation of subject and object, but as far as we know all knowing/all meaning is the property of the subject and as such, is capable of bestowing meaning upon a meaningless world.
And yet we are composed of that which is meaningless. The opposites of meaning and no-meaning are necessary for contrast to occur, this contrast is necessary for distinction and distinction is necessary for form. It is because of contradiction that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meaning exists wherever causes leave effects. We are both the effects of natural causes and the causes of "artificial" effects in the world. So we are both composed of meaning, or the result of meaningful processes, and create our own meanings through the effects we leave in the world.

Contradictions are only a specific type of difference. The one thing that contradictory objects seem to share is location in space-time, as that is what makes them a contradiction in that they differ in all properties except for their location in space-time, as if an object that is an apple and not an apple could occupy the same location in space-time. It is because of variation and evolution of causes and effects that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meaning is cause and effect as meaning is 'that which directs to something else'...cause directs to effect. The river never being the same and the river always being the river is an observation that contradiction occurs. Contradiction occurs through observation.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:56 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:21 pm

And yet we are composed of that which is meaningless. The opposites of meaning and no-meaning are necessary for contrast to occur, this contrast is necessary for distinction and distinction is necessary for form. It is because of contradiction that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meaning exists wherever causes leave effects. We are both the effects of natural causes and the causes of "artificial" effects in the world. So we are both composed of meaning, or the result of meaningful processes, and create our own meanings through the effects we leave in the world.

Contradictions are only a specific type of difference. The one thing that contradictory objects seem to share is location in space-time, as that is what makes them a contradiction in that they differ in all properties except for their location in space-time, as if an object that is an apple and not an apple could occupy the same location in space-time. It is because of variation and evolution of causes and effects that we are able to see and manifest forms.
Meanings are what alters the physical body of the subject in the relation of subject and object. The physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject, and thus, it is to this conscious subject that all experiences/meanings belong. At this point the subject is in a position to attribute meanings upon a meaningless world; biology being the measure and meaning of all things. There is only meaning to a biological subject, never is it the property of the physical world or object. Meaning/s are what pertains to a biological subject/consciousness, or that which alters one's biology as experience is meaning is consciousness and, in this way, that which alters one's biology becomes known to biological consciousness.
Meaning only occuring through consciousness means the meaning directs to meaning as consciousness references consciousness....this ends in a regressive self-referential loop.

Dually it can be questioned as to what "biological" means as the category of biology is a result of a biological phenomenon....again this ends in a regressive self-referential loop. Consciousness thus becomes category making and as a result makes contradiction as well given every category has a thesis and antithesis. Consciousness is contradiction as it contains all thesis and antithesis; it even makes the category of 'meaning' and 'meaninglessness'.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:13 pm What do you make of the statement that the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject? Are meanings just lying around like apples fallen from a tree? You tell me how one comes to know the world and give me a few examples of meanings that are just laying around littering the place. It would help you to understand the relation between subject and object, that relation is your apparent reality. All experience knowledge and meanings belong only to the conscious subject never to the object or the physical world as object.
In being aware of the object the object becomes part of the subject. In being aware of the subject the subject becomes the object. Subject and object are one and the same and in these respects; the 'meaningless world of objects' is part of the observer.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:10 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:55 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:19 pm

The absence of the truth of the orange found in the truth in the apple is not only a contrast but a contradiction. Contradiction is difference and difference is opposition as one thing stands as distinct from another.
Sounds like an extremely conformist idealogy.
There are many truths and these truths contain phenomena other truths do not, these phenomena are truths within truths. This absence of one truth found in another truth necessitates contrast.
Contrast sure. To me contrast does not entail contradiction. The pine tree next to the deciduous oak. I'd even go so far as to say they complement each other.
popeye1945
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:21 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:13 pm What do you make of the statement that the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject? Are meanings just lying around like apples fallen from a tree? You tell me how one comes to know the world and give me a few examples of meanings that are just laying around littering the place. It would help you to understand the relation between subject and object, that relation is your apparent reality. All experience knowledge and meanings belong only to the conscious subject never to the object or the physical world as object.
In being aware of the object the object becomes part of the subject. In being aware of the subject the subject becomes the object. Subject and object are one and the same and in these respects; the 'meaningless world of objects' is part of the observer.
Being aware is to be conscious and indeed object is the fuel of the mind, but experience, meaning and knowledge are the property of the subject never the property of the object. After the said subject has gained experience, meaning and knowledge the subject is able to attribute said meanings onto an otherwise meaningless world? The apparent reality for the subject is a biological readout of its physical reactions to the outside world.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:02 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:10 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:55 am Sounds like an extremely conformist idealogy.
There are many truths and these truths contain phenomena other truths do not, these phenomena are truths within truths. This absence of one truth found in another truth necessitates contrast.
Contrast sure. To me contrast does not entail contradiction. The pine tree next to the deciduous oak. I'd even go so far as to say they complement each other.
In one respect yes, but in the other respect they stand in opposition to each other because of differences. In these respects it may be contradictory to even speak of contradiction given they necessitate the differences of sames.
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