The Truth Contradiction

So what's really going on?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:23 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:21 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:13 pm What do you make of the statement that the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject? Are meanings just lying around like apples fallen from a tree? You tell me how one comes to know the world and give me a few examples of meanings that are just laying around littering the place. It would help you to understand the relation between subject and object, that relation is your apparent reality. All experience knowledge and meanings belong only to the conscious subject never to the object or the physical world as object.
In being aware of the object the object becomes part of the subject. In being aware of the subject the subject becomes the object. Subject and object are one and the same and in these respects; the 'meaningless world of objects' is part of the observer.
Being aware is to be conscious and indeed object is the fuel of the mind, but experience, meaning and knowledge are the property of the subject never the property of the object. After the said subject has gained experience, meaning and knowledge the subject is able to attribute said meanings onto an otherwise meaningless world? The apparent reality for the subject is a biological readout of its physical reactions to the outside world.
"Experience, meaning and knowledge" is the object becoming part of the observer.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:18 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:02 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:10 pm

There are many truths and these truths contain phenomena other truths do not, these phenomena are truths within truths. This absence of one truth found in another truth necessitates contrast.
Contrast sure. To me contrast does not entail contradiction. The pine tree next to the deciduous oak. I'd even go so far as to say they complement each other.
In one respect yes, but in the other respect they stand in opposition to each other because of differences. In these respects it may be contradictory to even speak of contradiction given they necessitate the differences of sames.
Well then we have a universe with contradictions all over the place. Contradictions are commonplace, then.
popeye1945
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:21 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:23 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:21 pm

In being aware of the object the object becomes part of the subject. In being aware of the subject the subject becomes the object. Subject and object are one and the same and in these respects; the 'meaningless world of objects' is part of the observer.
Being aware is to be conscious and indeed object is the fuel of the mind, but experience, meaning and knowledge are the property of the subject never the property of the object. After the said subject has gained experience, meaning and knowledge the subject is able to attribute said meanings onto an otherwise meaningless world? The apparent reality for the subject is a biological readout of its physical reactions to the outside world.
"Experience, meaning and knowledge" is the object becoming part of the observer.
Well, yes, objects are fuel to the mind. That is why it is said that subject and object stand or fall together, take one away and the other ceases to be.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Trajk Logik »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:12 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:04 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:20 pm

Under a large enough context contradictions occur, i.e. opposing things. "Planet earth" is a larger context.
Contradictions only occur within narrow scopes of space-time. A married man cannot occupy the same phyisical, or mental, space-time as a bachelor. If we have two seperate men, one being married and the other a bachelor then there is no contradiction. So your snowing on Earth example is only a contradition if it were snowing and not snowing in the same area and the same time on Earth.

Contradictions stem from language. Did humans have or could they have thought of contradictions before language? Contradictions are just a misuse of language.
And yet language is a phenomenon found in the real world. Given everything that is distinct is connected to a language all distinctions are contradictory because of said contrast expressed in other posts. The fact that distinctions are made necessitates contradiction.
You've just spread the meaning of contradiction so thin to render it meaningless. Every distinction is not a contradiction. The fact that there are similarities in reality and not only distinctions is evidence that you are wrong. How could we ever categorize the world if there were only distinctions? There is also the idea that an entity can possess distinct properties that do not contradict. If Jane is a mother, wife, daughter and sister, how do these distinct roles contradict each other? How are they similar? What makes them relatable?

There is also a distiction in how words are used. I can say or write what I mean, or use sign language. How can I say the same thing using different methods of communication and not contradict myself if every distinction is a contradiction? Would using different languages to say the same thing be a contradiction? What would it mean to say the SAME thing using distinct languages if every distinction is a contradiction?

What makes a scribble a word and not just a scribble?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Trajk Logik wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:27 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:12 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:04 pm
Contradictions only occur within narrow scopes of space-time. A married man cannot occupy the same phyisical, or mental, space-time as a bachelor. If we have two seperate men, one being married and the other a bachelor then there is no contradiction. So your snowing on Earth example is only a contradition if it were snowing and not snowing in the same area and the same time on Earth.

Contradictions stem from language. Did humans have or could they have thought of contradictions before language? Contradictions are just a misuse of language.
And yet language is a phenomenon found in the real world. Given everything that is distinct is connected to a language all distinctions are contradictory because of said contrast expressed in other posts. The fact that distinctions are made necessitates contradiction.
You've just spread the meaning of contradiction so thin to render it meaningless. Every distinction is not a contradiction. The fact that there are similarities in reality and not only distinctions is evidence that you are wrong. How could we ever categorize the world if there were only distinctions? There is also the idea that an entity can possess distinct properties that do not contradict. If Jane is a mother, wife, daughter and sister, how do these distinct roles contradict each other? How are they similar? What makes them relatable?

There is also a distiction in how words are used. I can say or write what I mean, or use sign language. How can I say the same thing using different methods of communication and not contradict myself if every distinction is a contradiction? Would using different languages to say the same thing be a contradiction? What would it mean to say the SAME thing using distinct languages if every distinction is a contradiction?

What makes a scribble a word and not just a scribble?
If contradiction is universal then it means nothing. Under these terms my arguments are the equivalent of climbing a ladder to a higher place then throwing away the ladder as Wittgenstein put it.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Trajk Logik »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:12 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:27 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:12 pm

And yet language is a phenomenon found in the real world. Given everything that is distinct is connected to a language all distinctions are contradictory because of said contrast expressed in other posts. The fact that distinctions are made necessitates contradiction.

You've just spread the meaning of contradiction so thin to render it meaningless. Every distinction is not a contradiction. The fact that there are similarities in reality and not only distinctions is evidence that you are wrong. How could we ever categorize the world if there were only distinctions? There is also the idea that an entity can possess distinct properties that do not contradict. If Jane is a mother, wife, daughter and sister, how do these distinct roles contradict each other? How are they similar? What makes them relatable?

There is also a distiction in how words are used. I can say or write what I mean, or use sign language. How can I say the same thing using different methods of communication and not contradict myself if every distinction is a contradiction? Would using different languages to say the same thing be a contradiction? What would it mean to say the SAME thing using distinct languages if every distinction is a contradiction?

What makes a scribble a word and not just a scribble?
If contradiction is universal then it means nothing. Under these terms my arguments are the equivalent of climbing a ladder to a higher place then throwing away the ladder as Wittgenstein put it.
Witt? - meh.

I prefer to say it's the equivalent of drawing meaningless scribbles on the screen. There's a difference between writing or saying something and drawing scribbles and making noises with your mouth. What do you think the nature of that difference is? Again, what makes some scribble a word and not just a scribble?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:32 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:12 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:27 pm


You've just spread the meaning of contradiction so thin to render it meaningless. Every distinction is not a contradiction. The fact that there are similarities in reality and not only distinctions is evidence that you are wrong. How could we ever categorize the world if there were only distinctions? There is also the idea that an entity can possess distinct properties that do not contradict. If Jane is a mother, wife, daughter and sister, how do these distinct roles contradict each other? How are they similar? What makes them relatable?

There is also a distiction in how words are used. I can say or write what I mean, or use sign language. How can I say the same thing using different methods of communication and not contradict myself if every distinction is a contradiction? Would using different languages to say the same thing be a contradiction? What would it mean to say the SAME thing using distinct languages if every distinction is a contradiction?

What makes a scribble a word and not just a scribble?
If contradiction is universal then it means nothing. Under these terms my arguments are the equivalent of climbing a ladder to a higher place then throwing away the ladder as Wittgenstein put it.
Witt? - meh.

I prefer to say it's the equivalent of drawing meaningless scribbles on the screen. There's a difference between writing or saying something and drawing scribbles and making noises with your mouth. What do you think the nature of that difference is? Again, what makes some scribble a word and not just a scribble?
The arguments start with rational premises and through continual analysis these premises become irrational. It is a reductio ad absurdum argument. From another perspective you can view the arguments like zen koans...ways to break away from fixed thinking.
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