Free will — an investigation

So what's really going on?

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Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:56 pm Fun investigation. Here's how it looks to me...

Free will enables us to do anything a creator of our capability can do.
'Intelligence', with 'belief', enables that ability to create, do, and/or achieve ANY thing.

'Free will' just enables 'the ABILITY, to CHOOSE'.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:56 pm We are creators of much of the experience that we have.
How does/did a child 'create' 'this world', in which 'it' exists, and is FORCED to 'experience' and/or 'suffer' and 'endure'?

How, EXACTLY, do children create much of the ABUSE that they HAVE TO experience?
Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:56 pm We choose how to react and respond to other creations.
'you', adult human beings, CAN do this, although 'you' RARELY DO, but HOW can a child, and especially a younger child, CHOOSE how to react and respond to the creations of "others"?
Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:56 pm We choose what to believe.
AND, 'you' can also CHOOSE to NEITHER 'believe' nor 'disbelieve'.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:56 pm We may feed beliefs and create more stories. We may create a reality of which we are a uniquely special star.
BUT WHY would ANY one do this?

There is CERTAINLY NO NEED TO. Unless, OF COURSE, one has had to grow up in a 'world/reality', which is NOT wanted, or just DISLIKED and/or HATED.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:56 pm We can attempt to draw others in or automatically impose our creations or stories on them. We may claim that much is out of our control or that we're just following commandments because it is a god's will and we are merely a devoted servant. We can create self-fulfilling prophecies to prove ourselves good and right. We can be dangerous, twisted little gods with our free-will creations!
BUT 'free will' just refers to 'the ABILITY, to choose'.

'Creations' are made by and through 'intelligence', 'imagination', and a BELIEF in one's own ability to 'make 'it' happen'.

And 'you' are VERY Correct in that 'you', adult human beings, can be VERY DANGEROUS, and VERY TWISTED, LITTLE 'things'.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:56 pm With free will, we can continually explore and expand our awareness and ability. We need not blame or attribute anything to anyone else when explaining what we are. There are influences... but they're like shades of color on a palette that we freely create with.

Without free will, how or why would we do any of these things?
One is completely and utterly FREE to CHOOSE, for example, to BELIEVE that God does NOT exist, and could NEVER exist, and there will ALWAYS be MORE, but this CHOICE to BELIEVE such a thing can be a VERY DANGEROUS and VERY TWISTED LITTLE thing TO DO.
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:44 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:16 pm
I am a free will. I am a point of causal & creative power. I begin, end, and bend at least some causal chains.
Which causal chains are those, Henry?
The ones I'm involved in, or that I involve myself in, and the ones I begin.
LOL
LOL
LOL

ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of one completely and utterly TOTALLY INCAPABLE of being able to back up and support the CLAIMS they make here.

And, what 'ones' ARE THEY, "henry quirk"?
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:58 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:44 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:16 pm

Which causal chains are those, Henry?
The ones I'm involved in, or that I involve myself in, and the ones I begin.
Do you think this applies equally to everybody's causal chains that they are involved in?

Does this apply to the causal chains of other animals and plants, or only men?
BEFORE 'you' ALLOW "henry quirk" to DEFLECT AWAY from PROVIDING ACTUAL CLARIFICATION, how about 'you' CONTINUE ON with SEEKING ACTUAL CLARIFICATION, FIRST?
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:07 pm
Do you think this applies equally to everybody's causal chains that they are involved in?
Takin' into account natural differences between men, yep.
AND, what ARE the, supposed, 'natural differences' between so-called 'men', EXACTLY?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:07 pm So we can have conflict between men as each opposes the other.
Oh well, seems like OBTAINING ACTUAL CLARIFICATION, now, in regards to what 'causal chains' "henry quirk" can, supposedly, ACTUALLY 'begin', 'end', and 'bend' is to late, as this now appears to have been DEFLECTED AWAY FROM, fully.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:07 pm
Does this apply to the causal chains of other animals and plants, or only men?
If you mean to ask, can I monkey around with causal chains of plants and animals: obviously yes.

If you mean to ask, can plants and animals monkey around with causal chains: only persons can.
WHY is this, supposedly, so?

And, HOW can and do 'you', human beings, DO THIS, EXACTLY?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:07 pm There may be non-human persons. I've known a few dogs and cats and horses who sure as hell seemed to be persons.
How do 'you' define 'persons', EXACTLY, "henry quirk"?
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm
I cannot see how humans would be favoured with the power to originate when other animals don't have the power to originate.
Persons cause; persons are agents; persons are free wills; persons reason, imagine, intend.

Plants, and (most) animals are not free wills.
So, HOW, EXACTLY, can human beings ORIGINATE causal chains?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm
I can accept that God can originate.
Well, He's the First Cause, the Prime Mover, the Free Will.
LOL
LOL
LOL

And who and/or what is 'God', EXACTLY?
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

bobmax wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:30 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:17 pm In other words, if we do or did have free will, what impact would it have on our real-world lives? What are its effects? And if we don't have free will, what does that mean, in terms of real-world consequences?
In my opinion the only consequence is about yourself.

The awareness that you have no free will grows in yourself.

This can lead to two different reactions in you:

- The rejection of this possibility for the horror it arouses.

- Or the birth of the hope of true freedom.

What is horror to the unfree man is delight to the truly free man.
And what is Truly ABSURD to the WISE, can be "truth" to the UNWISE.

As SHOWN and PROVED above, here.
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:31 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm
I cannot see how humans would be favoured with the power to originate when other animals don't have the power to originate.
Persons cause; persons are agents; persons are free wills; persons reason, imagine, intend.

Plants, and (most) animals are not free wills.
I can accept that God can originate.
Well, He's the First Cause, the Prime Mover, the Free Will.
Yes I agree. But persons as agents of change don't originate these changes. Persons are active and powerful as agents of change, but they don't absolutely originate changes. Only God originates and is not bound to causal chains .
Who and/or what is this 'God' thing, EXACTLY, which 'you', posters, here go on about?

Also, HOW does God, supposedly, 'originates'?

And, WHY is God, supposedly, NOT bound to causal chains?

Also, WHY do 'you', posters here, talk about 'chains', with an 's'? WHY do 'you' PRESUME there is MORE than just one?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm Causal chains are not terribly impressive, and are nothing more than how we explain how something happened.
Are they?

HOW, EXACTLY, do 'causal chains' EXPLAIN how the Universe is HERE?

The answer, by the way, is EXTREMELY SIMPLE and EASY. But I ask to just FIND OUT and SEE what respone/s given.
Belinda
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Belinda »

Age wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:01 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:31 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm

Persons cause; persons are agents; persons are free wills; persons reason, imagine, intend.

Plants, and (most) animals are not free wills.



Well, He's the First Cause, the Prime Mover, the Free Will.
Yes I agree. But persons as agents of change don't originate these changes. Persons are active and powerful as agents of change, but they don't absolutely originate changes. Only God originates and is not bound to causal chains .
Who and/or what is this 'God' thing, EXACTLY, which 'you', posters, here go on about?

Also, HOW does God, supposedly, 'originates'?

And, WHY is God, supposedly, NOT bound to causal chains?

Also, WHY do 'you', posters here, talk about 'chains', with an 's'? WHY do 'you' PRESUME there is MORE than just one?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm Causal chains are not terribly impressive, and are nothing more than how we explain how something happened.
Are they?

HOW, EXACTLY, do 'causal chains' EXPLAIN how the Universe is HERE?

The answer, by the way, is EXTREMELY SIMPLE and EASY. But I ask to just FIND OUT and SEE what respone/s given.
The more sophisticated among us recognise God is the ordering force of nature i.e. ultimate reality. The only alternative to ordering of nature is chaos. As Einstein said "God does not play dice".
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:04 pm
But persons as agents of change don't originate these changes.
The hell they don't. And I said begin, end, and bend causal chains, not just change them.
Well considering that you want to continue to make this CLAIM, how about you PUT UP some examples of what ACTUAL 'causal chains' "henry quirk" has BEGUN, ENDED, AND BENT.

CLAIMING to be able to BEGIN 'causal chains' puts "oneself" UP THERE, WITH God.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:04 pm
Only God originates and is not bound to causal chains .
God is the First Cause, not the only cause.
Causal chains are not terribly impressive, and are nothing more than how we explain how something happened.
Causal chains are those natural (and willed) sequences of events leading to events leading to events, etc.
LOL

'you' REALLY do NOT have a clue of what 'causal chains', which 'you' have, supposedly, BEGUN, ENDED, BENT, and/or CHANGED do 'you', "henry quirk".

'you' just sit 'there' in HOPE that 'you' do.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:04 pm There are innumerable chains all mixed together in a universe long & wide causal cable.
But you are YET to provide just ONE example of what ONE of them are, which you SUPPOSEDLY BEGAN, ENDED, or BENT.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:04 pm Only free wills move as they will among those chains.
So, considering you previously CLAIMED that only the 'I', and/or 'persons' , ARE 'free will', and what you have written here, then this would infer that NO 'thing' can MOVE, besides 'persons'.
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bahman
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by bahman »

Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:17 pm Over the years, we have all seen many topics concerning free will. But one thing I have never seen — a clarification of what we mean by the concept of free will. That's what this topic is.
According to Wikipedia free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Could we stick to this definition or do you have another meaning in your mind?
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:17 pm But this is not a definition-freak's topic, that demands a full, precise, and detailed definition, down to the last electron, before further discussion is permitted. Nothing so authoritarian! 😉

This topic seeks to clarify free will. I have two questions to start with; you may have more to add?

1. What freedom(s) does free will bestow?

2. In contrast, what are the freedoms that free will does not, or cannot, bestow, if any?

In other words, if we do or did have free will, what impact would it have on our real-world lives? What are its effects? And if we don't have free will, what does that mean, in terms of real-world consequences?
Think of situation that you are not aware of outcome of your decision which means that you don't know what to do. You are still free to choose though. Witout that ability you you would be trapped in the situation. Free will then have survival value.
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:01 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:31 pm

Yes I agree. But persons as agents of change don't originate these changes. Persons are active and powerful as agents of change, but they don't absolutely originate changes. Only God originates and is not bound to causal chains .
Who and/or what is this 'God' thing, EXACTLY, which 'you', posters, here go on about?

Also, HOW does God, supposedly, 'originates'?

And, WHY is God, supposedly, NOT bound to causal chains?

Also, WHY do 'you', posters here, talk about 'chains', with an 's'? WHY do 'you' PRESUME there is MORE than just one?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm Causal chains are not terribly impressive, and are nothing more than how we explain how something happened.
Are they?

HOW, EXACTLY, do 'causal chains' EXPLAIN how the Universe is HERE?

The answer, by the way, is EXTREMELY SIMPLE and EASY. But I ask to just FIND OUT and SEE what respone/s given.
The more sophisticated among us recognise God is the ordering force of nature i.e. ultimate reality.
God is 'energy', NOT 'force'. But besides 'that', what else you wrote here is just a LONG AGO KNOWN IRREFUTABLE Fact.
Belinda wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:06 pm The only alternative to ordering of nature is chaos. As Einstein said "God does not play dice".
So, what that just ANOTHER human being known as "einstein" says, is IRREFUTABLY True, Right, AND Correct, correct?

And, just like "henry quirk" does, 'you' are NOT answering MY ACTUAL QUESTIONS "belinda".
Age
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:08 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:17 pm Over the years, we have all seen many topics concerning free will. But one thing I have never seen — a clarification of what we mean by the concept of free will. That's what this topic is.
According to Wikipedia free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Could we stick to this definition or do you have another meaning in your mind?
Considering 'that definition' FITS IN just about PERFECTLY with the ONLY two other definitions, which have been provided so far, then it might be a GREAT idea to stick with these three near identical definitions.
bahman wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:08 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:17 pm But this is not a definition-freak's topic, that demands a full, precise, and detailed definition, down to the last electron, before further discussion is permitted. Nothing so authoritarian! 😉

This topic seeks to clarify free will. I have two questions to start with; you may have more to add?

1. What freedom(s) does free will bestow?

2. In contrast, what are the freedoms that free will does not, or cannot, bestow, if any?

In other words, if we do or did have free will, what impact would it have on our real-world lives? What are its effects? And if we don't have free will, what does that mean, in terms of real-world consequences?
Think of situation that you are not aware of outcome of your decision which means that you don't know what to do. You are still free to choose though. Witout that ability you you would be trapped in the situation. Free will then have survival value.
Belinda
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Belinda »

Age, when I quoted Einstein "God does not play dice" I indicated that Einstein the physicist believed that nature is not chaotic, not random, but ordered and as such may be discovered. This is what I believe. The EPR experiment and its inevitable interpretation is a case in point of support for nature as an ordered affair that may be discovered .
Belinda
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by Belinda »

Henry Quirk wrote:
Well, He's the First Cause, the Prime Mover, the Free Will.
First Cause, and Prime Mover, with or without capital letters, does not properly refer to the end of all causal chains. Causal chains take place in time, but the prime move is eternally the uncaused cause. The uncaused cause (or the Uncaused Cause) is not where the buck stops rolling. The uncaused cause never ceases to rule all that happens in the sense of an algorithm ruling all that a computer does. Uncaused cause functions, not as a one off or long- lasting cause, but as a cause that never is absent and has a continuous function.
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Re: Free will — an investigation

Post by henry quirk »

Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:37 am Henry Quirk wrote:
Well, He's the First Cause, the Prime Mover, the Free Will.
First Cause, and Prime Mover, with or without capital letters, does not properly refer to the end of all causal chains. Causal chains take place in time, but the prime move is eternally the uncaused cause. The uncaused cause (or the Uncaused Cause) is not where the buck stops rolling. The uncaused cause never ceases to rule all that happens in the sense of an algorithm ruling all that a computer does. Uncaused cause functions, not as a one off or long- lasting cause, but as a cause that never is absent and has a continuous function.
That's a nice lil stream of consciousness riff you got started on, B.

Please, continue.
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