Evolution and free will

So what's really going on?

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Age
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:02 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:56 pm
The ability to choose between options unbiasedly.
No one has that.
We could not have an opinion were we to have no bias.
We have been through this before. Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
YES i am ABLE to do SOME things when i have NO idea what is going to happen to me.

For example, i am able to go to the shops, when I have NO idea what is going to happen to me. BUT, absolutely NONE of this backs up and supports YOUR CLAIM that 'we' are able to choose between options without absolutely ANY bias AT ALL.
popeye1945
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:53 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:34 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:21 pm
You didn't answer my question. I am not talking about free will but the feeling of having free will so again why should we have such a feeling if free will is an illusion?
bahman,

The illusion is what is responsible for the belief in free will, but like the belief in the self it is a highly functional illusion and that may be the reason for belief in both cases.
If free will is an illusion then it cannot have a function.
Your mistaken there, it is a highly functional illusion, which makes it most powerful in supporting belief in it.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:40 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:34 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:25 pm

Sorry, can you explain to me what do you mean by "free to choose" ?

Let see if you really want to learn, ok?
By free I mean that your decision is not biased by options. Think of a situation in which you are on a road that takes you to a destination. Suddenly the road forks and you don't know which road to take. You cannot be biased with one of the roads yet you are free to choose one. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price for a share increases or decreases. Your options are whether to invest in the market or not. Can't you decide in such a situation? The number of cases where we don't know what to do yet we do something is very vast in our lives.
But Bahman, that's not freedom of choice, that's random choice. We do random choosing when we gamble .
A decision is either biased or not. In the first case, it is determined and in the second case, it is free. You don't have any other option. Free will looks random from the third person's perspective but it is not random from the first person's perspective since there is the element of wanting.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:43 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:34 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:25 pm

Sorry, can you explain to me what do you mean by "free to choose" ?

Let see if you really want to learn, ok?
By free I mean that your decision is not biased by options. Think of a situation in which you are on a road that takes you to a destination. Suddenly the road forks and you don't know which road to take. You cannot be biased with one of the roads yet you are free to choose one. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price for a share increases or decreases. Your options are whether to invest in the market or not. Can't you decide in such a situation? The number of cases where we don't know what to do yet we do something is very vast in our lives.
Just stay with one example, ok?

This:

"Think of a situation in which you are on a road that takes you to a destination"


In this situation I was yesterday. I just drive my car, I didnt think in going to anywhere, just drive, and I have to decide if I go the left or right.

I didnt create any thoughts, I didnt think anything. I just smell bacon comming from the right side, so I drive to the right side, because I was hungry.


That is a free choise?
It a free choice if it is biased by the smell of bacon.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:02 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:02 pm

No one has that.
We could not have an opinion were we to have no bias.
We have been through this before. Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
I do not think you know what bias means
Bias: Inclination or prejudice for or against something. I am open to discussing and using another word if we reach a conclusion.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:07 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:51 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:03 pm

You did not chose to be born you idiot.
My mind was not created. Just think about it, I am free therefore I am the uncaused cause.
No you are not an uncaused cause and you are not free.
You were born with a set of DNA into an environment over which you had no control or choice. Events happened to you which formed your knowledge and volition. At all times as a result of your DNA and environment. YOur choices were made through these conditions; your choices as what you like to call a "free" agent were caused by your situation and how you reacted to them all determined by the conditions you found yourself in.
You can express your will, but it is based on your current situation, all determined by a series of events over which you had no control.
All these influences are what caused you to be the confused person you are now.
Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:33 am
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:19 pm
Age wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:24 pm
But this is an IMPOSSIBILITY.
We do it most of the time.
So, if you want to CLAIM that 'we' choose between options, UNBIASEDLY,, most of the time, then I suggest you now provide an example of when 'we' do this JUST ONCE. That is, of course, if you want to be taken seriously.

If, however, you do NOT provide ANY examples of when 'we', supposedly, choose between options WITHOUT BIAS, then, REALLY, what you CLAIM is just your very OWN UNPROVEN view or BELIEF.

So, I suggest you now either STAND UP and PROVE your claim here absolutely true, or just ACCEPT that this is ONLY what you think or BELIEVE is true, and which may NOT be true AT ALL.
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:19 pm
Age wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:24 pm But if you removed the last word, or the last three words, then that definition would FIT IN PERFECTLY with EVERY thing else.
No.
LOL

"No", in regards to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, as YOUR CLAIM stands now, it is, OBVIOUSLY, UNPROVEN, to 'us'.
Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:02 pm

No one has that.
We could not have an opinion were we to have no bias.
We have been through this before. Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
YES i am ABLE to do SOME things when i have NO idea what is going to happen to me.

For example, i am able to go to the shops, when I have NO idea what is going to happen to me. BUT, absolutely NONE of this backs up and supports YOUR CLAIM that 'we' are able to choose between options without absolutely ANY bias AT ALL.
No, you misunderstood. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price of a share increases or decreases. That is what I mean you don't know what is going to happen. Are you able to decide?
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Sculptor
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:13 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:02 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:47 pm
We have been through this before. Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
I do not think you know what bias means
Bias: Inclination or prejudice for or against something. I am open to discussing and using another word if we reach a conclusion.
You cannot speak without it, and it has very little to do with free will per se
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Sculptor
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm
Age wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:47 pm
We have been through this before. Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
YES i am ABLE to do SOME things when i have NO idea what is going to happen to me.

For example, i am able to go to the shops, when I have NO idea what is going to happen to me. BUT, absolutely NONE of this backs up and supports YOUR CLAIM that 'we' are able to choose between options without absolutely ANY bias AT ALL.
No, you misunderstood. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price of a share increases or decreases. That is what I mean you don't know what is going to happen. Are you able to decide?
Talk me through it!
Make a choice without thinking about it.
CHNOPS
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by CHNOPS »

bahman wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:01 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:43 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:34 pm
By free I mean that your decision is not biased by options. Think of a situation in which you are on a road that takes you to a destination. Suddenly the road forks and you don't know which road to take. You cannot be biased with one of the roads yet you are free to choose one. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price for a share increases or decreases. Your options are whether to invest in the market or not. Can't you decide in such a situation? The number of cases where we don't know what to do yet we do something is very vast in our lives.
Just stay with one example, ok?

This:

"Think of a situation in which you are on a road that takes you to a destination"


In this situation I was yesterday. I just drive my car, I didnt think in going to anywhere, just drive, and I have to decide if I go the left or right.

I didnt create any thoughts, I didnt think anything. I just smell bacon comming from the right side, so I drive to the right side, because I was hungry.


That is a free choise?
It a free choice if it is biased by the smell of bacon.
Ok. And if that exact moment repeats 100 times, the 100 times I will drive to the right side?

And the animals who doesnt have thoughts make free choices then?

Thank you for answer the questions directly.
Age
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:16 pm
Age wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:33 am
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:19 pm
We do it most of the time.
So, if you want to CLAIM that 'we' choose between options, UNBIASEDLY,, most of the time, then I suggest you now provide an example of when 'we' do this JUST ONCE. That is, of course, if you want to be taken seriously.

If, however, you do NOT provide ANY examples of when 'we', supposedly, choose between options WITHOUT BIAS, then, REALLY, what you CLAIM is just your very OWN UNPROVEN view or BELIEF.

So, I suggest you now either STAND UP and PROVE your claim here absolutely true, or just ACCEPT that this is ONLY what you think or BELIEVE is true, and which may NOT be true AT ALL.
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:19 pm
No.
LOL

"No", in regards to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, as YOUR CLAIM stands now, it is, OBVIOUSLY, UNPROVEN, to 'us'.
Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?
So, 'you', "bahman", do NOT provide an example for what you CLAIM here because ...

Do 'you', at least, have the decency to fill the rest of that sentence in here for us?

"As for am I able to do anything when I have no idea what is going to happen to me" question. I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THAT.

OF COURSE, human beings are able to do things, when they have no idea what is going to happen to them. AND, just as OBVIOUS is human beings can do things, when they KNOW, EXACTLY, what is going to happen to them. BUT, as far as I can currently SEE absolutely NONE of this backs up and supports YOUR BELIEF and CLAIM that "human beings are able to choose, between options, unbiasedly.

If you want to PERSIST with this BELIEF and CLAIM of YOURS here, then JUST provide ONE example of when you have chosen between options UNBIASEDLY.

ONCE you have PROVIDED that ONE example, then we HAVE some 'thing' to LOOK AT, which we can THEN DISCUSS. Until then, as I have ALREADY STATED, you are just expressing your OWN UNPROVEN BELIEF here. Which, by the way, on countless occasions just end up being False, Wrong, or Incorrect BELIEFS and CLAIMS anyway. Just like this one of YOURS here appears to be ALSO.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:41 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:13 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:02 pm

I do not think you know what bias means
Bias: Inclination or prejudice for or against something. I am open to discussing and using another word if we reach a conclusion.
You cannot speak without it, and it has very little to do with free will per se
It has to do with free will. A decision is either biased or not, determined or free.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:41 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm
Age wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:36 am

YES i am ABLE to do SOME things when i have NO idea what is going to happen to me.

For example, i am able to go to the shops, when I have NO idea what is going to happen to me. BUT, absolutely NONE of this backs up and supports YOUR CLAIM that 'we' are able to choose between options without absolutely ANY bias AT ALL.
No, you misunderstood. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price of a share increases or decreases. That is what I mean you don't know what is going to happen. Are you able to decide?
Talk me through it!
Make a choice without thinking about it.
I of course think of choices when I want to make a decision but sometimes thinking does not help to choose.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:44 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:01 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:43 pm

Just stay with one example, ok?

This:

"Think of a situation in which you are on a road that takes you to a destination"


In this situation I was yesterday. I just drive my car, I didnt think in going to anywhere, just drive, and I have to decide if I go the left or right.

I didnt create any thoughts, I didnt think anything. I just smell bacon comming from the right side, so I drive to the right side, because I was hungry.


That is a free choise?
It a free choice if it is biased by the smell of bacon.
Ok. And if that exact moment repeats 100 times, the 100 times I will drive to the right side?

And the animals who doesnt have thoughts make free choices then?

Thank you for answer the questions directly.
Sorry, I should have said: It is not a free choice if it is biased by the smell of bacon.
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