Evolution and free will

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bahman
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Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.
Walker
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Walker »

Ahem … ahem. Can you hear me? Good. Although limiting the dynamic flow of reality to the boundaries of a word definition such as “determinism” is like looking through the wrong end of a monocular in the sense of the tail wagging the dog, the blunder does sometimes manifest from all the possibilities of infinite potentiality* under the guise of intellectual fodder, when conditions are ripe enough to pop. Every move you make, every guess you take, brings what must be, closer still. The mystery fuels curiosity and motion, which in the case of the incurious is precious little. When there is no incentive to change, why change?

* there it is again
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Walker wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:08 pm Ahem … ahem. Can you hear me? Good. Although limiting the dynamic flow of reality to the boundaries of a word definition such as “determinism” is like looking through the wrong end of a monocular in the sense of the tail wagging the dog, the blunder does sometimes manifest from all the possibilities of infinite potentiality* under the guise of intellectual fodder, when conditions are ripe enough to pop. Every move you make, every guess you take, brings what must be, closer still. The mystery fuels curiosity and motion, which in the case of the incurious is precious little. When there is no incentive to change, why change?

* there it is again
Ahem .... Ahem. I can hear you but I cannot understand you. :mrgreen: You know, English is not my first language so I have difficulty understanding you no matter how many times I use a dictionary.
CHNOPS
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by CHNOPS »

bahman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:45 pm Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.
And why souldnt have it?

Is the same as asking why there are lies and ignorance and suffering. Is the same pattern... dont you think?
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Sculptor
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:11 pm
Walker wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:08 pm Ahem … ahem. Can you hear me? Good. Although limiting the dynamic flow of reality to the boundaries of a word definition such as “determinism” is like looking through the wrong end of a monocular in the sense of the tail wagging the dog, the blunder does sometimes manifest from all the possibilities of infinite potentiality* under the guise of intellectual fodder, when conditions are ripe enough to pop. Every move you make, every guess you take, brings what must be, closer still. The mystery fuels curiosity and motion, which in the case of the incurious is precious little. When there is no incentive to change, why change?

* there it is again
Ahem .... Ahem. I can hear you but I cannot understand you. :mrgreen: You know, English is not my first language so I have difficulty understanding you no matter how many times I use a dictionary.
Double trouble since Walker is struggling with English too.
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Sculptor
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:45 pm Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.
Evolution does not grant anything. Evolution is a process by which useful traits are preserved whilst reproductively negative ones are disfavoured by virtue of their success leading to viable progeny.

The urge to act and to have purposeful action is a massively positive trait, the notion that an organism is "free" to pursue it volition to survive is also very useful. The idea that what appears "free" may not be, has no specific reproductive advantage, and like so many other traits which are also neutral persist regardless of selective advantage.

The fact that options exist means exactly that the world is deterministic. Choice of one or more of those options is also deterministic, in exactly the same way that rejecting an option is also deterministic.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:24 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:45 pm Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.
And why souldnt have it?
I mean, according to materialists everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic. The question is
why should we have this trait granted by evolution which is useless?
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:45 pm Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.
Evolution does not grant anything. Evolution is a process by which useful traits are preserved whilst reproductively negative ones are disfavoured by virtue of their success leading to viable progeny.
I know that.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The urge to act and to have purposeful action is a massively positive trait, the notion that an organism is "free" to pursue it volition to survive is also very useful.
Why having the feeling of free will is useful in a deterministic universe?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The idea that what appears "free" may not be, has no specific reproductive advantage, and like so many other traits which are also neutral persist regardless of selective advantage.
Being free has a specific reproductive advantage. We have been through this several times. Think of the situation in that you don't know what option to choose yet you are able to choose. Without free will, you would be trapped.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The fact that options exist means exactly that the world is deterministic.
No. You don't know what deterministic means. Do you?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm Choice of one or more of those options is also deterministic, in exactly the same way that rejecting an option is also deterministic.
Only if we choose the option that we prefer.
promethean75
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by promethean75 »

Thomas Henry Huxley defends in an essay titled On the Hypothesis that Animals are Automata, and its History an epiphenomenalist theory of consciousness according to which consciousness is a causally inert effect of neural activity—"as the steam-whistle which accompanies the work of a locomotive engine is without influence upon its machinery". To this William James objects in his essay Are We Automata? by stating an evolutionary argument for mind-brain interaction implying that if the preservation and development of consciousness in the biological evolution is a result of natural selection, it is plausible that consciousness has not only been influenced by neural processes, but has had a survival value itself; and it could only have had this if it had been efficacious.
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:46 pm
Thomas Henry Huxley defends in an essay titled On the Hypothesis that Animals are Automata, and its History an epiphenomenalist theory of consciousness according to which consciousness is a causally inert effect of neural activity—"as the steam-whistle which accompanies the work of a locomotive engine is without influence upon its machinery". To this William James objects in his essay Are We Automata? by stating an evolutionary argument for mind-brain interaction implying that if the preservation and development of consciousness in the biological evolution is a result of natural selection, it is plausible that consciousness has not only been influenced by neural processes, but has had a survival value itself; and it could only have had this if it had been efficacious.
What is mind to him? What is the survival value of consciousness if it is inert?
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Sculptor
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:45 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:45 pm Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.
Evolution does not grant anything. Evolution is a process by which useful traits are preserved whilst reproductively negative ones are disfavoured by virtue of their success leading to viable progeny.
I know that.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The urge to act and to have purposeful action is a massively positive trait, the notion that an organism is "free" to pursue it volition to survive is also very useful.
Why having the feeling of free will is useful in a deterministic universe?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The idea that what appears "free" may not be, has no specific reproductive advantage, and like so many other traits which are also neutral persist regardless of selective advantage.
Being free has a specific reproductive advantage. We have been through this several times. Think of the situation in that you don't know what option to choose yet you are able to choose. Without free will, you would be trapped.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The fact that options exist means exactly that the world is deterministic.
No. You don't know what deterministic means. Do you?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm Choice of one or more of those options is also deterministic, in exactly the same way that rejecting an option is also deterministic.
Only if we choose the option that we prefer.
You never fail to show yourself as stupid
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bahman
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:39 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:45 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm
Evolution does not grant anything. Evolution is a process by which useful traits are preserved whilst reproductively negative ones are disfavoured by virtue of their success leading to viable progeny.
I know that.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The urge to act and to have purposeful action is a massively positive trait, the notion that an organism is "free" to pursue it volition to survive is also very useful.
Why having the feeling of free will is useful in a deterministic universe?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The idea that what appears "free" may not be, has no specific reproductive advantage, and like so many other traits which are also neutral persist regardless of selective advantage.
Being free has a specific reproductive advantage. We have been through this several times. Think of the situation in that you don't know what option to choose yet you are able to choose. Without free will, you would be trapped.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm The fact that options exist means exactly that the world is deterministic.
No. You don't know what deterministic means. Do you?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:02 pm Choice of one or more of those options is also deterministic, in exactly the same way that rejecting an option is also deterministic.
Only if we choose the option that we prefer.
You never fail to show yourself as stupid
And you never fail to stop a constructive discussion with an insult.
promethean75
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by promethean75 »

well ultimately consciousness, that networking of neural activity, would end up accidentally facilitating behaviors that gave the animal an edge, a better fitness level, a greater chance of surviving, etc.

really its language that gives the evolutionary edge... just that you gotta be conscious to be our kind of language user. it's the collecting, storing and passing of information that is what is useful to the species. can't have that without language and ya can't have language without consciousness. so consciousness is the vestigial accident by which language emerges, and since this characteristic helps the animal more than hurting it (although I've heard some pretty horrible poetry readings I'd not wish on anyone), its genetic coding gets passed successfully in reproduction. ergo, you have your functionality theory of consciousnesses.

an accident that while being very expensive (ten years at least to raise/teach a human child to defend itself), increases survival odds rather than lowering them.

it's our thumbs that saved us. we have designed and created a world a total moron can survive well in. a human being can be the mental equivalent of a juvenile its entire life. so a more technologically advanced world makes the price of consciousness less expensive.
promethean75
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by promethean75 »

"What is the survival value of consciousness if it is inert?"

See above.

Note nothing about 'causes' needs to be talked about here. Consciousness as some kind of immaterial second substance that acts on the material body to cause it to act, is a hypothesis not at all needed.

And to call consciousness an epiphenomena, btw, is a misnomer because there is no feature that is consciousness that may or may not have a causal effect on the behavior of the body in the first place.

In fact, you, the body that is bahman, has causal efficacy in the world and produces effects. Go kick your refrigerator to see what I mean.

But there is no second part of bahman that is not part of the body of operating causes at a neurophysiological level in your body. And sometimes some of those operating causes in the brain cause other operations to occur... in which case we could even say that 'bahman chose, moved, and made something happen' and this would be true. But nowhere is anything inferred about 'freewill'.
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Re: Evolution and free will

Post by Belinda »

bahman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:45 pm Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.
That is because although future events are determined, we have no knowledge of future events and must live as if we have free will.
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