Free will and determinism

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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:04 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:52 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:06 pm

There are no two roads that are the same. It is impossible.
I am talking about a road that forks and you don't know which one takes you to the destination you are interested in. I am talking about you waniting to invest in market but you don't know that the price of share goes up or down, etc.
So am I. Choice is determined by a complex of factors, a whim is enough.
I am not talking complex situation but an ambiguous situation so a whim is not enough.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

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Sculptor wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:05 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:03 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic
I am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.
You are not advancing a claim for free will contra determinism.
I am arguing in favor of free agents. I am also arguing that a deterministic system halts on specific occasions.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I'm also like 80% sure you're using the word "halt" in a way that it isn't meant to be used. It seems like you're using it as a synonym for erroring or crashing. That's not what it means though.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

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Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:14 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:03 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic
I am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.
I just don't see any compelling reason to accept any of your claims, first of all, but even more than that, I can't understand why this version of free will you've presented is even relevant, at all, to anything.
It is relevant since the survival of any agent who may face equally liked options depends on it. You are doomed if you cannot decide in such a situation. Moreover, if a free agent has the ability to overcome an equally liked situation, it also has the ability to decide against its wishes, desires, etc.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:14 pm Free will is philosophically important in 2 contexts: morality (or ethics), and in making sense of "the feeling of having free will". In both of those contexts, the concept of free will is not only not limited to these "completely equal unbiased choices", is very explicitly about choices where people do have a bias. So your new conception of free will runs completely contrary to every reason anybody has to talk about free will at all. You've trivialised the concept with your definition into something philosophically empty.
As I mentioned a free agent can also decide against its wishes, desires, etc. so this discussion is relevant when it comes to morality as well since any free agent is responsible for its decision because it wants that specific decision. For what regards the feeling of having free will, it is not a matter of chance that a free agent can decide against its desires, wishes, etc., and act accordingly.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

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Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:41 pm I'm also like 80% sure you're using the word "halt" in a way that it isn't meant to be used. It seems like you're using it as a synonym for erroring or crashing. That's not what it means though.
I mean bring or come to an abrupt stop.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:43 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:41 pm I'm also like 80% sure you're using the word "halt" in a way that it isn't meant to be used. It seems like you're using it as a synonym for erroring or crashing. That's not what it means though.
I mean bring or come to an abrupt stop.
Yeah, a program whose job it is to choose between options may stop when it chooses an option. You're talking about it like halting is an issue, that because a program halts there's something wrong with it.

That's not what halting means
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:42 pm As I mentioned a free agent can also decide against its wishes, desires, etc. so this discussion is relevant when it comes to morality as well since any free agent is responsible for its decision because it wants that specific decision. For what regards the feeling of having free will, it is not a matter of chance that a free agent can decide against its desires, wishes, etc., and act accordingly.
"any free agent is responsible for its decision because it wants that specific decision."

I thought you said a decision is only free if it's unbiased. If someone wants a specific decision, they're biased, and therefore by your definition the decision wasn't free. I don't see how your thoughts here are compatible with each other.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:51 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:43 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:41 pm I'm also like 80% sure you're using the word "halt" in a way that it isn't meant to be used. It seems like you're using it as a synonym for erroring or crashing. That's not what it means though.
I mean bring or come to an abrupt stop.
Yeah, a program whose job it is to choose between options may stop when it chooses an option. You're talking about it like halting is an issue, that because a program halts there's something wrong with it.

That's not what halting means
I am not talking about whether there is something wrong with a program. I am talking that a deterministic system cannot resolve when options are equaly liked therefore it stops working or halts.
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Right, you think "halts" means "stops working", you think something's broken.

I'm going to throw out a guess here that you're not a software developer, because you're not really using these terms right, and you don't really seem to have a solid grasp on the central point you're trying to make, that deterministic software can't "choose" in this way.

You're mistaken. Halting doesn't mean what you think it means, but regardless of that, you're mistaken about that anyway. You don't apparently have a good enough grasp of programming concepts to support that conclusion. You don't know what deterministic software is or is not capable of.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:53 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:42 pm As I mentioned a free agent can also decide against its wishes, desires, etc. so this discussion is relevant when it comes to morality as well since any free agent is responsible for its decision because it wants that specific decision. For what regards the feeling of having free will, it is not a matter of chance that a free agent can decide against its desires, wishes, etc., and act accordingly.
"any free agent is responsible for its decision because it wants that specific decision."

I thought you said a decision is only free if it's unbiased. If someone wants a specific decision, they're biased, and therefore by your definition the decision wasn't free. I don't see how your thoughts here are compatible with each other.
You are biased when you have a desire for something which may be morally wrong or right. You however have the power to go against the bias and make a free decision regardless of whether the action you desire is morally wrong or right. You are simply not biased when you make a free decision. It is the power over the bias that makes a free agent responsible for its free decision.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

So free decisions are unbiased decisions about decisions that the decider is biased about? This is turning into quite the tongue twister. Honestly, there isn't a single aspect of this that feels coherent to me.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:13 pm Right, you think "halts" means "stops working", you think something's broken.

I'm going to throw out a guess here that you're not a software developer, because you're not really using these terms right, and you don't really seem to have a solid grasp on the central point you're trying to make, that deterministic software can't "choose" in this way.

You're mistaken. Halting doesn't mean what you think it means, but regardless of that, you're mistaken about that anyway. You don't apparently have a good enough grasp of programming concepts to support that conclusion. You don't know what deterministic software is or is not capable of.
I know what I am talking about. I am also aware that deterministic software cannot resolve a situation when options are equally liked. I already argued that the code you wrote is already decided by you and that is not the code that decides when options are equally liked.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:43 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:13 pm Right, you think "halts" means "stops working", you think something's broken.

I'm going to throw out a guess here that you're not a software developer, because you're not really using these terms right, and you don't really seem to have a solid grasp on the central point you're trying to make, that deterministic software can't "choose" in this way.

You're mistaken. Halting doesn't mean what you think it means, but regardless of that, you're mistaken about that anyway. You don't apparently have a good enough grasp of programming concepts to support that conclusion. You don't know what deterministic software is or is not capable of.
I know what I am talking about. I am also aware that deterministic software cannot resolve a situation when options are equally liked. I already argued that the code you wrote is already decided by you and that is not the code that decides when options are equally liked.
Deterministic software can't decide between equal options, but when I show you deterministic software that can, you say it's because a human wrote it, and humans have free will, and in order to prove that humans have free will, you rely on the fact that deterministic software can't decide between equal options.

You're arguing in circles. It's not coherent. Of course all software I can show you is going to be written by a human. You're trapped in a thought loop.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:28 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:05 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:03 pm
I am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.
You are not advancing a claim for free will contra determinism.
I am arguing in favor of free agents. I am also arguing that a deterministic system halts on specific occasions.
You have nothing
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:38 pm So free decisions are unbiased decisions about decisions that the decider is biased about?
You are not only free to resolve an unbiased situation when options are equally liked but also able to go against biased situation for no specific reason. The point is that you have power in any situation therefore you are responsible.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:38 pm This is turning into quite the tongue twister. Honestly, there isn't a single aspect of this that feels coherent to me.
I hope that thing is clear now.
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