Free will and determinism

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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:26 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:59 pm So cannot you decide when the road forks? A robot cannot!
We are ever changing.
When a hungry ass is faced with two distinct stacks of hay, he cannot at first chose which to eat.
The claim is that the ass starves from indecision. That he does not, it is claimed, is the existence of free will.

However this is a synchronic outlook; reality is diachronic, ever changing.

The ass first looks left then right, but each time his hunger grows. His hunger reaches a tipping point. Which ever hay he is regarding at that moment he choses.
This his will is determined by his growing hunger and he does not starve. This is determined by a drop in leptin due to low blood sugar. Hunger forces the issue.
How could you ever change and get biased toward one road versus another when you simply don't know which road is the proper one?
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:32 am
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:55 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm
Yes, I have every problem with it. What does bias have to do with it?
It is pretty obvious. If you have a bias toward one option (for example you like one over another) then you may choose the option you like because you are biased by it so your decision is not free.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm And there's nothing incompatible between "choosing between options" and determinism, yet you're putting them at complete odds with each other.
Yes, if the decision is conditional by which I mean you prefer one over another.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm A deterministic chess engine also chooses between options, it's deterministic all the same.
A chess engine can make a conditional decision rather than a free decision. Here we are talking about free decision.
This seems like the least useful, least desirable conception of free will I've ever heard of.
There is no other option, like it or not. A decision is either free or non-free. In the first case, you are not biased by any option but in the second case, you are biased by one option. Do you have another option in your mind?
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm You only have free will when it's a decision that you don't care about. Who cares about this definition of free will? Not me.
Free will is important. It not only resolves the halting problem but also allows you to decide against your wishes.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm Also, the ability to choose between two options that are basically equal to us doesn't rely on determinism being false.
It means that a deterministic system halts.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:28 am
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:59 pm So cannot you decide when the road forks? A robot cannot!
Much like Buridan's ass, the robot has more that two choices to base its decision on.

1. Left fork
2. Right fork
The robot is not biased toward left or right.
attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:28 am 3. Batteries might die, so pick one or two at random -eeny meeeny miny mo---bla bla (and yes, I know eeny meeny is not random!!)
There is no such thing as a deterministic pure random generator.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

bahman wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:13 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm Also, the ability to choose between two options that are basically equal to us doesn't rely on determinism being false.
It means that a deterministic system halts.
No, it doesn't. I could easily design a deterministic program that chooses between equal options. Look:

Code: Select all

function decideBetweenOptions(options) {
	return options[0]; // returns the first option.
}
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:02 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:13 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm Also, the ability to choose between two options that are basically equal to us doesn't rely on determinism being false.
It means that a deterministic system halts.
No, it doesn't. I could easily design a deterministic program that chooses between equal options. Look:

Code: Select all

function decideBetweenOptions(options) {
	return options[0]; // returns the first option.
}
Whoever wrote that code freely decided to return 0!
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

this entire line of thinking is layers of begging the question. you've just added another layer.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:18 pm this entire line of thinking is layers of begging the question. you've just added another layer.
No, there is no begging the question. You just failed to realize that the result of your code is already decided by a free agent, you.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Right, which is exactly why it's begging the question. There's nothing I could show you which could possibly make you think determinism might be compatible with it, because whatever I show you, you've already decided you're being shown it by a being that's incompatible with determinsm. You've put yourself into a situation where you can't even recognize anything to the contrary as anything other than self-contradictory, even if it isn't.

It feels like another conversation I had with someone recently who was insisting that, if you flip a coin 3 times in a row and they're all heads, the 4th flip is more likely to be tails. I was trying to tell him, no no no, if it's a fair coin, the 4th flip is still 50/50, and he had defined the scenario in such a way in his mind that me saying that was literally inherently contradictory to him. He couldn't see past his own nose.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:05 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:26 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:59 pm So cannot you decide when the road forks? A robot cannot!
We are ever changing.
When a hungry ass is faced with two distinct stacks of hay, he cannot at first chose which to eat.
The claim is that the ass starves from indecision. That he does not, it is claimed, is the existence of free will.

However this is a synchronic outlook; reality is diachronic, ever changing.

The ass first looks left then right, but each time his hunger grows. His hunger reaches a tipping point. Which ever hay he is regarding at that moment he choses.
This his will is determined by his growing hunger and he does not starve. This is determined by a drop in leptin due to low blood sugar. Hunger forces the issue.
How could you ever change and get biased toward one road versus another when you simply don't know which road is the proper one?
What do you mean "proper"? If they are not exactly the same then you have something different upon which you make your choice.
If they appear identical then the simple fact that at time=x you are looking at one rather then the other means they are different in that way.
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iambiguous
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by iambiguous »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:19 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:28 pm Right -- metaphysically -- define free will into existence.

Okay, but for those who might be interested, take your definition here:
All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

Then those here who actually believe that what they believe about all of this reflects, what, the ontological truth about the human condition itself?

Then those who are compelled in turn to insist on a teleological component as well. Usually in the form of one or another God.

Meanwhile, philosophers and scientists and theologians have been grappling with this profound mystery now for thousands of years.

Either in the only possible reality in the only possible world or of their own volition.
Then, given a particular set of circumstances we are all likely to be familiar with, intertwine this definition into it.
I provided my argument against strong emergence several times. You mentioned that you are not qualified to provide a counterargument against it. Now we are in step one again, you claiming that insentient matter somehow becomes alive because of its configuration. You know, I really don't know how to deal with you.
That's because you confuse arguments with actual evidence.

Please note where I am "claiming that insentient matter somehow becomes alive because of its configuration".

What on earth does that even mean? Empirically for example.

Do you yourself have an accumulation of hard evidence that explains how non-living matter configured into living matter?

No, like all the rest of us, you note that there is non-living matter side by side with living matter. Science is grappling to explain it. Just as scientists are grappling to explain how living matter itself configured into conscious matter and then into self-conscious matter.

But even if one day they accomplish this, there's still the part where free itself "somehow" comes into existence.

And what are the odds it will be resolved before all of us here are dead and gone?
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:47 pm Right, which is exactly why it's begging the question. There's nothing I could show you which could possibly make you think determinism might be compatible with it, because whatever I show you, you've already decided you're being shown it by a being that's incompatible with determinsm. You've put yourself into a situation where you can't even recognize anything to the contrary as anything other than self-contradictory, even if it isn't.

It feels like another conversation I had with someone recently who was insisting that, if you flip a coin 3 times in a row and they're all heads, the 4th flip is more likely to be tails. I was trying to tell him, no no no, if it's a fair coin, the 4th flip is still 50/50, and he had defined the scenario in such a way in his mind that me saying that was literally inherently contradictory to him. He couldn't see past his own nose.
You cannot possibly write a code that can decide when options are equally liked. You cannot resolve the halting problem when a chain of causality forks.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:52 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:05 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:26 pm

We are ever changing.
When a hungry ass is faced with two distinct stacks of hay, he cannot at first chose which to eat.
The claim is that the ass starves from indecision. That he does not, it is claimed, is the existence of free will.

However this is a synchronic outlook; reality is diachronic, ever changing.

The ass first looks left then right, but each time his hunger grows. His hunger reaches a tipping point. Which ever hay he is regarding at that moment he choses.
This his will is determined by his growing hunger and he does not starve. This is determined by a drop in leptin due to low blood sugar. Hunger forces the issue.
How could you ever change and get biased toward one road versus another when you simply don't know which road is the proper one?
What do you mean "proper"? If they are not exactly the same then you have something different upon which you make your choice.
If they appear identical then the simple fact that at time=x you are looking at one rather then the other means they are different in that way.
By proper I mean the road that takes you to your destination. Another road does not. You cannot know which road is the proper one yet you have to decide. Can't you decide?
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:01 am
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:19 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:28 pm Right -- metaphysically -- define free will into existence.

Okay, but for those who might be interested, take your definition here:



Then, given a particular set of circumstances we are all likely to be familiar with, intertwine this definition into it.
I provided my argument against strong emergence several times. You mentioned that you are not qualified to provide a counterargument against it. Now we are in step one again, you claiming that insentient matter somehow becomes alive because of its configuration. You know, I really don't know how to deal with you.
That's because you confuse arguments with actual evidence.

Please note where I am "claiming that insentient matter somehow becomes alive because of its configuration".

What on earth does that even mean? Empirically for example.

Do you yourself have an accumulation of hard evidence that explains how non-living matter configured into living matter?

No, like all the rest of us, you note that there is non-living matter side by side with living matter. Science is grappling to explain it. Just as scientists are grappling to explain how living matter itself configured into conscious matter and then into self-conscious matter.

But even if one day they accomplish this, there's still the part where free itself "somehow" comes into existence.

And what are the odds it will be resolved before all of us here are dead and gone?
What is your evidence that matter is insentient?
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

bahman wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:00 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:47 pm Right, which is exactly why it's begging the question. There's nothing I could show you which could possibly make you think determinism might be compatible with it, because whatever I show you, you've already decided you're being shown it by a being that's incompatible with determinsm. You've put yourself into a situation where you can't even recognize anything to the contrary as anything other than self-contradictory, even if it isn't.

It feels like another conversation I had with someone recently who was insisting that, if you flip a coin 3 times in a row and they're all heads, the 4th flip is more likely to be tails. I was trying to tell him, no no no, if it's a fair coin, the 4th flip is still 50/50, and he had defined the scenario in such a way in his mind that me saying that was literally inherently contradictory to him. He couldn't see past his own nose.
You cannot possibly write a code that can decide when options are equally liked. You cannot resolve the halting problem when a chain of causality forks.
I already did write it
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:02 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:52 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:05 pm
How could you ever change and get biased toward one road versus another when you simply don't know which road is the proper one?
What do you mean "proper"? If they are not exactly the same then you have something different upon which you make your choice.
If they appear identical then the simple fact that at time=x you are looking at one rather then the other means they are different in that way.
By proper I mean the road that takes you to your destination. Another road does not. You cannot know which road is the proper one yet you have to decide. Can't you decide?
I think you've lost the plot here.
And are not really paying attention to the thread
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