A deterministic system does not produce options but it may face options.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:07 pm Why do you think any situation in a deterministic system will produce options that are "equally likely"?
Free will and determinism
Re: Free will and determinism
Re: Free will and determinism
All computer programs are deterministic even when there are options (of course when options are not equally liked).Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:09 pm Take Conway's game of Life. The code deterministically determines the next state from the previous state, based on rules. The rules are followed, and they determine the next state of the system precisely every time. There's no "options". Just rules about what happens next.
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Re: Free will and determinism
I don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at allbahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pmA deterministic system does not produce options but it may face options.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:07 pm Why do you think any situation in a deterministic system will produce options that are "equally likely"?
Re: Free will and determinism
No choice is equal, ever.
Choices are not made by reason alone, but by inclination, motivation, emotional states, needs, wants, desires.
Your model of reality is fake
Re: Free will and determinism
You do face options all the time.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:57 pmI don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at allbahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pmA deterministic system does not produce options but it may face options.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:07 pm Why do you think any situation in a deterministic system will produce options that are "equally likely"?
Re: Free will and determinism
How about the road that forks?Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:00 pmNo choice is equal, ever.
Choices are not made by reason alone, but by inclination, motivation, emotional states, needs, wants, desires.
Your model of reality is fake
Re: Free will and determinism
There are no two roads that are the same. It is impossible.
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Re: Free will and determinism
I'm not the universe. I'm something within the universe. Just because I "face options" doesn't mean the universe, in computing how the laws of physics apply to the next moment in time, faces options. The universe, in calculating physics, has no conception of the options that I face all the time. It doesn't need to. It doesn't carebahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:02 pmYou do face options all the time.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:57 pmI don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at all
Re: Free will and determinism
I am talking about a road that forks and you don't know which one takes you to the destination you are interested in. I am talking about you waniting to invest in market but you don't know that the price of share goes up or down, etc.
Re: Free will and determinism
Well, the argument is established if I show that there is one entity that faces options.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:24 pmI'm not the universe. I'm something within the universe. Just because I "face options" doesn't mean the universe, in computing how the laws of physics apply to the next moment in time, faces options. The universe, in calculating physics, has no conception of the options that I face all the time. It doesn't need to. It doesn't carebahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:02 pmYou do face options all the time.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:57 pm
I don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at all
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Re: Free will and determinism
I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic
Re: Free will and determinism
I am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic
Re: Free will and determinism
So am I. Choice is determined by a complex of factors, a whim is enough.
Re: Free will and determinism
You are not advancing a claim for free will contra determinism.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:03 pmI am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic
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Re: Free will and determinism
I just don't see any compelling reason to accept any of your claims, first of all, but even more than that, I can't understand why this version of free will you've presented is even relevant, at all, to anything.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:03 pmI am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic
Free will is philosophically important in 2 contexts: morality (or ethics), and in making sense of "the feeling of having free will". In both of those contexts, the concept of free will is not only not limited to these "completely equal unbiased choices", is very explicitly about choices where people do have a bias. So your new conception of free will runs completely contrary to every reason anybody has to talk about free will at all. You've trivialised the concept with your definition into something philosophically empty.