Free will and determinism

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bahman
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Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Free will is defined as the ability to unbiasedly choose between at least two options. Determinism is a world view that claims that any system that undergoes a change goes from one state to another state in which the later state is uniquely determined by the earlier state. Although most system seems to behave deterministically there are cases where a system faces two options. Here I defined all possible options. Obviously, the system cannot evolve deterministically where there are options. That is where a free decision is needed.
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iambiguous
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by iambiguous »

Right -- metaphysically -- define free will into existence.

Okay, but for those who might be interested, take your definition here:
All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

Then those here who actually believe that what they believe about all of this reflects, what, the ontological truth about the human condition itself?

Then those who are compelled in turn to insist on a teleological component as well. Usually in the form of one or another God.

Meanwhile, philosophers and scientists and theologians have been grappling with this profound mystery now for thousands of years.

Either in the only possible reality in the only possible world or of their own volition.
Then, given a particular set of circumstances we are all likely to be familiar with, intertwine this definition into it.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:48 pm Free will is defined as the ability to unbiasedly choose between at least two options.
A choice is not possible without a preference. Bias is that preference. We all have bias. Without it we would not have an opinion. You have started with a falsehood, and the rest of your statement cannot thrive from that position.
Determinism is a world view that claims that any system that undergoes a change goes from one state to another state in which the later state is uniquely determined by the earlier state. Although most system seems to behave deterministically there are cases where a system faces two options.
That is an odd way to express it.
Here I defined all possible options. Obviously, the system cannot evolve deterministically where there are options. That is where a free decision is needed.
Oh really?
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:28 pm Right -- metaphysically -- define free will into existence.

Okay, but for those who might be interested, take your definition here:
All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

Then those here who actually believe that what they believe about all of this reflects, what, the ontological truth about the human condition itself?

Then those who are compelled in turn to insist on a teleological component as well. Usually in the form of one or another God.

Meanwhile, philosophers and scientists and theologians have been grappling with this profound mystery now for thousands of years.

Either in the only possible reality in the only possible world or of their own volition.
Then, given a particular set of circumstances we are all likely to be familiar with, intertwine this definition into it.
I provided my argument against strong emergence several times. You mentioned that you are not qualified to provide a counterargument against it. Now we are in step one again, you claiming that insentient matter somehow becomes alive because of its configuration. You know, I really don't know how to deal with you.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:48 pm Free will is defined as the ability to unbiasedly choose between at least two options.
A choice is not possible without a preference.
Depending on the situation we might have two options that we prefer equally. You cannot be biased by one option which I mean you prefer one over another one in such a situation.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm Bias is that preference.
True. So what?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm We all have bias.
Not always. I provided examples of situations where you cannot prefer one option over another in the link. In another word, an unbiased/free decision is needed.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm Without it we would not have an opinion. You have started with a falsehood, and the rest of your statement cannot thrive from that position.
No. You just don't understand what I am talking about.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm
Determinism is a world view that claims that any system that undergoes a change goes from one state to another state in which the later state is uniquely determined by the earlier state. Although most system seems to behave deterministically there are cases where a system faces two options.
That is an odd way to express it.
What is odd about it? It is concise.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm
Here I defined all possible options. Obviously, the system cannot evolve deterministically where there are options. That is where a free decision is needed.
Oh really?
Yes. Did you ever pause when there were options in your life?
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Feeling like there are options is not incompatible with determinism.

A chess ai would feel like there are options if it had consciousness, as it's searching through the space of possible moves, even if that chess program were entirely deterministic and would always choose the same move in the same circumstance.

The feeling of options being available cannot be mistaken for a sign that determinism is not the case. All it means is that we do not yet know what path we will take. It doesn't mean one way or the other that the underlying reality is not deterministic.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:43 pm Feeling like there are options is not incompatible with determinism.
The existence of options means that we are dealing with a situation. The situation can be resolved deterministically if there is a bias toward one option, otherwise, you need a mind to freely decide.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:43 pm A chess ai would feel like there are options if it had consciousness, as it's searching through the space of possible moves, even if that chess program were entirely deterministic and would always choose the same move in the same circumstance.
A computer can deal with the options since there is always a preference for one option over another. Here, we however talking about the situation where options are equally liked, or final outcome of a situation is not known.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:43 pm The feeling of options being available cannot be mistaken for a sign that determinism is not the case.
Determinism breaks and the system halts when the situation is such that the options are equally liked for example.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:43 pm All it means is that we do not yet know what path we will take.
Well, determinism breaks if you don't know which way to take.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:43 pm It doesn't mean one way or the other that the underlying reality is not deterministic.
Of course, determinism is true while there are no options.
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

It sounds like you're just begging the question that there are in fact genuine options and that that means determinism isn't true. Again, just because you can feel yourself considering different possible futures doesn't preclude the idea that maybe there's only 1 future that's deterministically decided by the laws of physics.

Feelings are not the primary determiner of what is real.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I'm not a full on determinist (it's complicated), but I also don't think the presence or absence of determinism tells us anything about free will, if free will is well defined. I don't think free will is well defined here.
Last edited by Flannel Jesus on Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:48 pm Free will is defined as the ability to unbiasedly choose between at least two options.
A choice is not possible without a preference.
Depending on the situation we might have two options that we prefer equally. You cannot be biased by one option which I mean you prefer one over another one in such a situation.
No that is impossible, since our desires are ever changing.
Buridan's ass has as solution.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm Bias is that preference.
True. So what?
There is no such state as unbiased.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm We all have bias.
Not always. I provided examples of situations where you cannot prefer one option over another in the link. In another word, an unbiased/free decision is needed.
No you did not.
No choice is still a choice.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm Without it we would not have an opinion. You have started with a falsehood, and the rest of your statement cannot thrive from that position.
No. You just don't understand what I am talking about.
No that is not the problem. The problem is that YOU do not know what you are talking about.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm
Determinism is a world view that claims that any system that undergoes a change goes from one state to another state in which the later state is uniquely determined by the earlier state. Although most system seems to behave deterministically there are cases where a system faces two options.
That is an odd way to express it.
What is odd about it? It is concise.
No its garbled. Try some commas.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm
Here I defined all possible options. Obviously, the system cannot evolve deterministically where there are options. That is where a free decision is needed.
Oh really?
Yes. Did you ever pause when there were options in your life?
Yes. I was determined to make the right choice. And so I did.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm I'm not a full on determinist, but I also don't think the presence or absence of determinism tells us anything about free will, if free will is well defined. I don't think free will is well defined here.
Free will is determined by the fact that the causal factors are limited, not by outside pressure, but internal volition.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:16 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm I'm not a full on determinist, but I also don't think the presence or absence of determinism tells us anything about free will, if free will is well defined. I don't think free will is well defined here.
Free will is determined by the fact that the causal factors are limited, not by outside pressure, but internal volition.
Which seems like that concept does not rely on physical determinism being false
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:13 pm It sounds like you're just begging the question that there are in fact genuine options and that that means determinism isn't true.
I am not begging the question.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:13 pm Again, just because you can feel yourself considering different possible futures doesn't preclude the idea that maybe there's only 1 future that's deterministically decided by the laws of physics.
One possible future is not always the only possibility. I elaborated on three different situations to show that options are real (in the link in OP). A fully deterministic system halts in each of these situations.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:13 pm Feelings are not the primary determiner of what is real.
How do you know that reality is partially deterministic if it is not through experience? What we know as the laws of physics are in fact the third perspective view of how matter behaves. We simply don't have access to the first perspective point of view on how matter feels/experiences things.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm I'm not a full on determinist (it's complicated), but I also don't think the presence or absence of determinism tells us anything about free will, if free will is well defined. I don't think free will is well defined here.
I defined free will in OP. Do you have any issue with it?
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 pm
A choice is not possible without a preference.
Depending on the situation we might have two options that we prefer equally. You cannot be biased by one option which I mean you prefer one over another one in such a situation.
No that is impossible, since our desires are ever changing.
Buridan's ass has as solution.
What if your desire does not change?
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm True. So what?
There is no such state as unbiased.
False.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
Not always. I provided examples of situations where you cannot prefer one option over another in the link. In another word, an unbiased/free decision is needed.
No you did not.
No choice is still a choice.
Ok, think of a situation where you are walking on a road that takes you to a destination. Now suppose that the road forks at a specific point and you don't know which road is the correct road that takes you to the destination that interested you. There is no way that you can say that you are biased toward one of the roads yet you are able to choose one.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
No. You just don't understand what I am talking about.
No that is not the problem. The problem is that YOU do not know what you are talking about.
No.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
What is odd about it? It is concise.
No its garbled. Try some commas.
Don't you understand this: Determinism is a world view that claims any system that undergoes a change, goes from one state to another state in which the later state is uniquely determined by the earlier state.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
Yes. Did you ever pause when there were options in your life?
Yes. I was determined to make the right choice. And so I did.
You cannot be determined when you are in a situation that I explained (the road example).
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