Free will and determinism

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Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:16 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm I'm not a full on determinist (it's complicated), but I also don't think the presence or absence of determinism tells us anything about free will, if free will is well defined. I don't think free will is well defined here.
I defined free will in OP. Do you have any issue with it?
Yes, I have every problem with it. What does bias have to do with it? And there's nothing incompatible between "choosing between options" and determinism, yet you're putting them at complete odds with each other.

A deterministic chess engine also chooses between options, it's deterministic all the same.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:16 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm I'm not a full on determinist, but I also don't think the presence or absence of determinism tells us anything about free will, if free will is well defined. I don't think free will is well defined here.
Free will is determined by the fact that the causal factors are limited, not by outside pressure, but internal volition.
Which seems like that concept does not rely on physical determinism being false
Indeed since physical determinism is true, and the will is an expression of inner determination.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:30 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
Depending on the situation we might have two options that we prefer equally. You cannot be biased by one option which I mean you prefer one over another one in such a situation.
No that is impossible, since our desires are ever changing.
Buridan's ass has as solution.
What if your desire does not change?


There is no such state as unbiased.
False.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
No you did not.
No choice is still a choice.
Ok, think of a situation where you are walking on a road that takes you to a destination. Now suppose that the road forks at a specific point and you don't know which road is the correct road that takes you to the destination that interested you. There is no way that you can say that you are biased toward one of the roads yet you are able to choose one.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
No that is not the problem. The problem is that YOU do not know what you are talking about.
No.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
No its garbled. Try some commas.
Don't you understand this: Determinism is a world view that claims any system that undergoes a change, goes from one state to another state in which the later state is uniquely determined by the earlier state.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm

Yes. I was determined to make the right choice. And so I did.
You cannot be determined when you are in a situation that I explained (the road example).
You are determined to be wrong.
Free will is nothing more than an expression of your inner determining factors.
bobmax
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bobmax »

Free will is the faculty to be an unconditional origin of events.

These events can be mere will, any thought, or action.
What matters is that these events arise unconditionally.

Because their cause is only that origin that does not refer to anything else: it is unconditional.

Since there appears to be nothing unconditional in nature, free will appears to be a supernatural feature.
That is, the event resulting from free will is not unlike a miracle.
An event that undermines the natural law.

PS
It doesn't seem to me that unbiasedly is unconditionality. An event can be unconditional but not unbiased.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:20 pm Free will is the faculty to be an unconditional origin of events.

These events can be mere will, any thought, or action.
What matters is that these events arise unconditionally.

Because their cause is only that origin that does not refer to anything else: it is unconditional.

Since there appears to be nothing unconditional in nature, free will appears to be a supernatural feature.
That is, the event resulting from free will is not unlike a miracle.
An event that undermines the natural law.

PS
It doesn't seem to me that unbiasedly is unconditionality. An event can be unconditional but not unbiased.
What you describe is impossible.
The minimum condition for will is a functioning brain.
bobmax
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bobmax »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:22 pm
bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:20 pm Free will is the faculty to be an unconditional origin of events.

These events can be mere will, any thought, or action.
What matters is that these events arise unconditionally.

Because their cause is only that origin that does not refer to anything else: it is unconditional.

Since there appears to be nothing unconditional in nature, free will appears to be a supernatural feature.
That is, the event resulting from free will is not unlike a miracle.
An event that undermines the natural law.

PS
It doesn't seem to me that unbiasedly is unconditionality. An event can be unconditional but not unbiased.
What you describe is impossible.
The minimum condition for will is a functioning brain.
I think so too.
Free will is impossible.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:16 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm I'm not a full on determinist (it's complicated), but I also don't think the presence or absence of determinism tells us anything about free will, if free will is well defined. I don't think free will is well defined here.
I defined free will in OP. Do you have any issue with it?
Yes, I have every problem with it. What does bias have to do with it?
It is pretty obvious. If you have a bias toward one option (for example you like one over another) then you may choose the option you like because you are biased by it so your decision is not free.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm And there's nothing incompatible between "choosing between options" and determinism, yet you're putting them at complete odds with each other.
Yes, if the decision is conditional by which I mean you prefer one over another.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm A deterministic chess engine also chooses between options, it's deterministic all the same.
A chess engine can make a conditional decision rather than a free decision. Here we are talking about free decision.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:33 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:30 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:15 pm
No that is impossible, since our desires are ever changing.
Buridan's ass has as solution.

False.


Ok, think of a situation where you are walking on a road that takes you to a destination. Now suppose that the road forks at a specific point and you don't know which road is the correct road that takes you to the destination that interested you. There is no way that you can say that you are biased toward one of the roads yet you are able to choose one.


No.


Don't you understand this: Determinism is a world view that claims any system that undergoes a change, goes from one state to another state in which the later state is uniquely determined by the earlier state.


You cannot be determined when you are in a situation that I explained (the road example).
You are determined to be wrong.
Free will is nothing more than an expression of your inner determining factors.
So cannot you decide when the road forks? A robot cannot!
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:20 pm Free will is the faculty to be an unconditional origin of events.

These events can be mere will, any thought, or action.
What matters is that these events arise unconditionally.

Because their cause is only that origin that does not refer to anything else: it is unconditional.

Since there appears to be nothing unconditional in nature, free will appears to be a supernatural feature.
That is, the event resulting from free will is not unlike a miracle.
An event that undermines the natural law.

PS
It doesn't seem to me that unbiasedly is unconditionality. An event can be unconditional but not unbiased.
Ok, think of a situation where you are walking on a road that takes you to a destination. Now suppose that the road forks at a specific point and you don't know which road is the correct road that takes you to the destination that interested you. There is no way that you can say that you are biased toward one of the roads yet you are able to choose one. As you see free will is one of the abilities of any agent without it life is impossible.
bobmax
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bobmax »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:19 pm Ok, think of a situation where you are walking on a road that takes you to a destination. Now suppose that the road forks at a specific point and you don't know which road is the correct road that takes you to the destination that interested you. There is no way that you can say that you are biased toward one of the roads yet you are able to choose one. As you see free will is one of the abilities of any agent without it life is impossible.
The fact that I choose one path over the other does not demonstrate free will.

Buridan's donkey does not starve because it has free will, but because nothing is ever in perfect balance.

Our reality, its becoming, is based on the initial rupture of the equilibrium which occurred at the beginning of time.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:31 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:22 pm
bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:20 pm Free will is the faculty to be an unconditional origin of events.

These events can be mere will, any thought, or action.
What matters is that these events arise unconditionally.

Because their cause is only that origin that does not refer to anything else: it is unconditional.

Since there appears to be nothing unconditional in nature, free will appears to be a supernatural feature.
That is, the event resulting from free will is not unlike a miracle.
An event that undermines the natural law.

PS
It doesn't seem to me that unbiasedly is unconditionality. An event can be unconditional but not unbiased.
What you describe is impossible.
The minimum condition for will is a functioning brain.
I think so too.
Free will is impossible.
I glad you think so.
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Sculptor
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:59 pm So cannot you decide when the road forks? A robot cannot!
We are ever changing.
When a hungry ass is faced with two distinct stacks of hay, he cannot at first chose which to eat.
The claim is that the ass starves from indecision. That he does not, it is claimed, is the existence of free will.

However this is a synchronic outlook; reality is diachronic, ever changing.

The ass first looks left then right, but each time his hunger grows. His hunger reaches a tipping point. Which ever hay he is regarding at that moment he choses.
This his will is determined by his growing hunger and he does not starve. This is determined by a drop in leptin due to low blood sugar. Hunger forces the issue.
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attofishpi
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by attofishpi »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:59 pm So cannot you decide when the road forks? A robot cannot!
Much like Buridan's ass, the robot has more that two choices to base its decision on.

1. Left fork
2. Right fork
3. Batteries might die, so pick one or two at random -eeny meeeny miny mo---bla bla (and yes, I know eeny meeny is not random!!)
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:55 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:16 pm
I defined free will in OP. Do you have any issue with it?
Yes, I have every problem with it. What does bias have to do with it?
It is pretty obvious. If you have a bias toward one option (for example you like one over another) then you may choose the option you like because you are biased by it so your decision is not free.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm And there's nothing incompatible between "choosing between options" and determinism, yet you're putting them at complete odds with each other.
Yes, if the decision is conditional by which I mean you prefer one over another.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:36 pm A deterministic chess engine also chooses between options, it's deterministic all the same.
A chess engine can make a conditional decision rather than a free decision. Here we are talking about free decision.
This seems like the least useful, least desirable conception of free will I've ever heard of.

You only have free will when it's a decision that you don't care about. Who cares about this definition of free will? Not me.

Also, the ability to choose between two options that are basically equal to us doesn't rely on determinism being false.
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bahman
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Re: Free will and determinism

Post by bahman »

bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:59 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:19 pm Ok, think of a situation where you are walking on a road that takes you to a destination. Now suppose that the road forks at a specific point and you don't know which road is the correct road that takes you to the destination that interested you. There is no way that you can say that you are biased toward one of the roads yet you are able to choose one. As you see free will is one of the abilities of any agent without it life is impossible.
The fact that I choose one path over the other does not demonstrate free will.
It does. It also demonstrates that determinism breaks at the junction too.
bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:59 pm Buridan's donkey does not starve because it has free will, but because nothing is ever in perfect balance.
I already gave you an example of perfect balance. There are more examples. When you don't know which path is the proper one then you cannot be biased by one so this is an example of perfect balance.
bobmax wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:59 pm Our reality, its becoming, is based on the initial rupture of the equilibrium which occurred at the beginning of time.
What are you talking about?
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