to grok free Will

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Advocate
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to grok free Will

Post by Advocate »

There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.

We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.

The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
Atla
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Atla »

Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free.
That remains to be seen.
Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.
But it could loop back around, in a sense infinitely, as one unchanging eternal circularity. It has already happened / it is happening / it will happen. It could be where determinism and free will meet.
Remains to be seen, maybe later we'll know.
Alexiev
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Alexiev »

Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.

We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.

The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
Of course there are reasons for every decision we make. So what? Why would that invalidate the concept of free will. "Free" means "unconstrained by others". Or it means "able to act as we desire unconstrained by others."

We cannot fly by flapping our arms. But that doesn't mean we lack freedom. Simply because our actions are caused we cannot they are not free. That would be a misuse of the word "free". .
Iwannaplato
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Iwannaplato »

Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.

We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.

The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
Well, then it was utterly determined that you would think you are making sense. You might be. You might not be. But the 'I just made sense' quale had to be felt by you at that moment you wrote the above. Was it caused by the strength of your reasoning? or by your need? or by some clump of neurons misfiring? You can't know. It was always going to seem to you (that 'that makes sense' quale) as if you were making sense, at least to you it was always going to seem that way. But for all you know, it might have been near gibberish.
Wizard22
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Wizard22 »

Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pmThere is no sense in which our will is free.
No....

*YOUR* will is not free. You speak for you, and only you.

My will is free, completely free. Do not impose your restrictions over others.

Just because your will is enslaved, doesn't mean everybody else's are.
Age
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Age »

Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.
'you' do NOT appear to UNDERSTAND, FULLY, YET what the words 'free will' ACTUALLY MEAN and ARE REFERRING TO, EXACTLY. Which FITS IN PERFECTLY WITH EVERY 'thing' ELSE, HERE.
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.
This here is ANOTHER example of how 'these people' back then would come up with and say just about ANY 'thing' in the HOPE of backing up and supporting 'their' ALREADY HELD ONTO, current, BELIEF/S.
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
Okay.
Age
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Age »

Atla wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:54 pm
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free.
That remains to be seen.
Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.
But it could loop back around, in a sense infinitely, as one unchanging eternal circularity. It has already happened / it is happening / it will happen. It could be where determinism and free will meet.
Remains to be seen, maybe later we'll know.
What IS IRREFUTABLY True HERE IS ALREADY KNOWN, although, and AGAIN, CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, BACK in those days when this was being written.
Age
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Age »

Alexiev wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:31 am
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.

We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.

The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
Of course there are reasons for every decision we make. So what? Why would that invalidate the concept of free will. "Free" means "unconstrained by others". Or it means "able to act as we desire unconstrained by others."

We cannot fly by flapping our arms. But that doesn't mean we lack freedom. Simply because our actions are caused we cannot they are not free. That would be a misuse of the word "free". .
ONCE MORE, what one ALREADY BELIEVES IS TRUE, can be CLEARLY SEEN, and what IS just AS OBVIOUS is that one WITH A BELIEF WILL come up with words, which they will USE in the HOPE that 'those words' will somehow back up and support 'their' ALREADY OBTAINED and currently HELD ONTO BELIEF.
Age
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Age »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:56 am
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.

We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.

The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
Well, then it was utterly determined that you would think you are making sense. You might be. You might not be.
BUT, "advocate" IS MAKING 'sense', AND, IS NOT MAKING 'sense', here.

What "advocate" SAYS and WRITES here, MAKES 'sense', TO "advocate". BUT, NOT TO SOME "others".
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:56 am But the 'I just made sense' quale had to be felt by you at that moment you wrote the above. Was it caused by the strength of your reasoning? or by your need? or by some clump of neurons misfiring? You can't know.
WHY can "advocate", supposedly, NOT KNOW?

Can 'you', "iwannaplato", ALSO NOT KNOW?

Can 'you', human beings, EVER KNOW?

IF no, then, supposedly, WHY NOT?
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:56 am It was always going to seem to you (that 'that makes sense' quale) as if you were making sense, at least to you it was always going to seem that way. But for all you know, it might have been near gibberish.
BUT 'it' WAS, and IS, so-called 'gibberish', WHEN IN relation to what the ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE Truth IS, EXACTLY?
Age
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 8:20 am
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pmThere is no sense in which our will is free.
No....

*YOUR* will is not free. You speak for you, and only you.

My will is free, completely free. Do not impose your restrictions over others.

Just because your will is enslaved, doesn't mean everybody else's are.
Is there A 'will' here, which IS DIFFERENT WITHIN 'you', human beings?
Flannel Jesus
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:56 am
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.

We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.

The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
Well, then it was utterly determined that you would think you are making sense. You might be. You might not be. But the 'I just made sense' quale had to be felt by you at that moment you wrote the above. Was it caused by the strength of your reasoning? or by your need? or by some clump of neurons misfiring? You can't know. It was always going to seem to you (that 'that makes sense' quale) as if you were making sense, at least to you it was always going to seem that way. But for all you know, it might have been near gibberish.
Iambiguous made an alt account! :shock:
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Sculptor
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Sculptor »

Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pm There is no sense in which our will is free. Causality is infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever.

We exist in the ignorance gap between chaos and causality. To the extent we do not understand causality, we may feel free.

The word "Will" alone is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom.
THe only way the phrase "free will" can be used is in situations where no one is compelling you to act against your personal inclination.
For all other acts we act in a way determined by who and what we are at that moment.

Many how argue for free will complain that arguing for a deterministic reality absolves us of responsibility.

This is bogus - only when we are forced to act against our determination can we be free of responsibility of our actions. When we are literally determined to act in the knowlege that we might be doing wrong, that is a reflection on our personality. Sanctions can be brought to bear against that person. Such sanctions my cause a change of mind. I argue that the penal system needs to be geared to effect such changes to avoid residivism.

It turns out that such penal systems that recognise mitigation of circumstance are better equipped to do their job than those beleive in the myth of radical free will.

For those that peddle the myth of radical free will prisoners are willful and irredeemable. Lock em up and throw awy the key. So much for overcrowded American prisons, where free will rules!

I prefer the Scandinavian system which works to reform prisoners, and the rates of residivism are the lowest in the world.
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Sculptor
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Sculptor »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 8:20 am
Advocate wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:17 pmThere is no sense in which our will is free.
No....

*YOUR* will is not free. You speak for you, and only you.

My will is free, completely free. Do not impose your restrictions over others.

Just because your will is enslaved, doesn't mean everybody else's are.
I've never encountered a person who is more controlled by the media than you. You are determined by the swamp of the social media you see.
You are willingly enslaved by yourself.
Iwannaplato
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 9:51 am Iambiguous made an alt account! :shock:
There is no justification for this kind of nastiness, Curly!
Iwannaplato
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Re: to grok free Will

Post by Iwannaplato »

Age wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 9:36 am BUT, "advocate" IS MAKING 'sense', AND, IS NOT MAKING 'sense', here.
Where is he making sense and where is he not making sense?

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:56 am But the 'I just made sense' quale had to be felt by you at that moment you wrote the above. Was it caused by the strength of your reasoning? or by your need? or by some clump of neurons misfiring? You can't know.
WHY can "advocate", supposedly, NOT KNOW?
I argued why above, in the part you quoted.
Can 'you', "iwannaplato", ALSO NOT KNOW?
As far as I can tell I am certainly capable of not knowing. I remember many instances when this was the case, as far as I can tell. Of course, I'm not a believer in determinism, so what I am saying is entailed by that belief is not necessarily entailed for me. And I am also not a believer in free will. I think certain things are entailed by a belief in determinism. I put forward one of those.
Can 'you', human beings, EVER KNOW?
What do you think, Age?

IF no, then, supposedly, WHY NOT?
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:56 am It was always going to seem to you (that 'that makes sense' quale) as if you were making sense, at least to you it was always going to seem that way. But for all you know, it might have been near gibberish.
BUT 'it' WAS, and IS, so-called 'gibberish', WHEN IN relation to what the ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE Truth IS, EXACTLY?
This looks like a question, since it has a question mark, but it seems like a statement. In any case, I am not sure what the question is, if it is one.

What is the ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE truth, Age?
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