We are living in simulating reality

So what's really going on?

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Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:29 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:17 pm
Of course, there is another mind that creates qualia so the other mind can experience it. It is give and take, like our conversation.
SO, which 'mind' came first?
Minds have existed since the beginning of time. So there is no first mind or lasat mind.
SO, as I have asked you BEFORE, HOW MANY 'minds' ARE THERE?

WHO and/what OWNS these so-called 'mind' THINGS, ('you' after all keep TELLING us that it is “YOUR" 'mind' that does things)?

HOW do these 'mind' THINGS MOVE and CHANGE physical objects?

HOW did these ’mind' THINGS came to EXIST with 'time'?

HOW did these 'mind' THINGS CREATE physical objects, like the Universe, Itself, when 'time', supposedly, BEGAN?

WHAT came FIRST, 'time', 'mind', or ' physicality'?

HOW does it logically follow that 'mind' is needed for change to happen, if 'mind' only came about since 'time' BEGAN?

OBVIOUSLY, 'time' can NOT occur, if 'change' is NOT occuring, and, according to "bahman“ “logic“ 'change' can NOT occur without 'mind' BUT 'mind' has only been around since 'time' began. Which is ALL VERY CONTRADICTORY and INCONSISTENT, as can be CLEARLY SEEN.
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:29 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:15 pm And, who or what created that first 'mind'?
Mind cannot be created or destroyed.
SO, HOW could these 'mind' THINGS, which 'you' SAY there is more than one of, NOT be existing eternally? You have CLAIMED that THEY have only been around SINCE 'time', correct?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:32 pm I just want to prove that mind exists since change exists.
just want to??

Whatever your feelings and intent, your argument must be valid and sound, but so far that is not the case.
My argument is sound and valid.
Dimebag
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Dimebag »

bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm To me, reality consists of minds and qualia. Minimally there are two minds one causes qualia that I perceive and another mind is mine. An object in my view can only exist if there are more minds that are responsible for moving qualia in reality. What is an object? An assembly of minds that exchange qualia with each other and form an entity.
So you believe your mind is imbedded in a greater mind, which causes qualia. You mind directly perceives these Qualia, which the supermind has produced. The light which is being projected, IS the qualia itself, as are all objects. Nothing exists except the mind, and the qualia.

What if instead of calling the greater mind a mind, we call it existence, which would make the objects also part of that existence.

What happens when you die, do the qualia remain, or do they cease? Are the qualia dependent on your mind, or independent?

If they are independent, how can you distinguish between the two ideas of mind independent objects, and mind independent qualia?

If you say, the objects are the qualia, how can someone have a hallucination? Or, maybe misidentify something, like mistake a rope for a snake? If your mind does not interpret the qualia, if it doesn’t assemble some internal model which acts as a proxy for whatever is out there, how do you account for these discrepancies?
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm Mind only directly experiences and causes qualia. If objectivism (by objectivism I mean that objects exist as it is illustrated in the previous comment) is really true then my mind experiences the qualia that are created in my brain by other minds which this of course is the result of light reflecting from an object and interact with my sensory system, etc. There are minds exchanging information in this chain.
So you do agree your sensory system has some work to do, to interpret that light pattern, and distinguish it as for example, a rope and not a snake. If there is some interpretation, then what you see in your mind is a representation of what is out there. Therefore there can be a difference between what is out there, and what is in the mind. So there is something out there which the qualia refer to, which could be different from what they appear to be. This must be a mind independent object.

You might say, this object (qualia using your term) is dependent on the greater mind (existence in my term). I would agree that objects require existence. They must be imbedded in some existent framework. We call this the universe, you call it a universal mind. Seems like semantics now.

See it seems you want qualia to be able to do all the work that the current understanding of the physical universe does, such as having physical properties, mass, momentum, etc.

Would you say then that physicists are studying and describing the behaviour of qualia and the universal mind?
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm Of course, I am not denying that there are at least two minds. My view is, however, idealism by which I mean that mind is fundamental and qualia are due to mind.
Does this universal mind have the same property as our mind being awareness? Does it know that it exists?

I want to understand if there is any difference between this greater mind, and what others might term, existence?
DPMartin
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by DPMartin »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:43 am
DPMartin wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:42 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:46 pm hence the requirement of more than one witness
if Fred sees something it could be real or otherwise, if George sees something it could be real or otherwise. but if Fred and George see the same thing, then is it real?
saying something looks like something doesn't mean they know or believe or even suggest that what they see is a real thing. that's like saying a cloud looks like a bird means the person believes its a bird.
I was referring to your claim;
"but if Fred and George see the same thing, then is it real?"
read the posting, its a question not a claim, isn't it? you know, if, then?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:43 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:29 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm
SO, which 'mind' came first?
Minds have existed since the beginning of time. So there is no first mind or lasat mind.
SO, as I have asked you BEFORE, HOW MANY 'minds' ARE THERE?
At least two, at most many.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm WHO and/what OWNS these so-called 'mind' THINGS, ('you' after all keep TELLING us that it is “YOUR" 'mind' that does things)?
Anything that can cause change.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW do these 'mind' THINGS MOVE and CHANGE physical objects?
Mind causes qualia. An object is constituted of minds that they are interacting via qualia. Minds within an object experience qualia caused by other minds too so they can be affected.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW did these ’mind' THINGS came to EXIST with 'time'?
Minds simply exist. They didn't come to exist.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW did these 'mind' THINGS CREATE physical objects, like the Universe, Itself, when 'time', supposedly, BEGAN?
Minds experience and create qualia. The first qualia came out of nothing.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm WHAT came FIRST, 'time', 'mind', or ' physicality'?
Minds simply exist. Time and qualia come to exist together at the beginning of time and everything else.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW does it logically follow that 'mind' is needed for change to happen, if 'mind' only came about since 'time' BEGAN?
Minds simply exist.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm OBVIOUSLY, 'time' can NOT occur, if 'change' is NOT occuring, and, according to "bahman“ “logic“ 'change' can NOT occur without 'mind' BUT 'mind' has only been around since 'time' began. Which is ALL VERY CONTRADICTORY and INCONSISTENT, as can be CLEARLY SEEN.
No, time is needed for change and it is not dependent on change.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:29 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:15 pm And, who or what created that first 'mind'?
Mind cannot be created or destroyed.
SO, HOW could these 'mind' THINGS, which 'you' SAY there is more than one of, NOT be existing eternally? You have CLAIMED that THEY have only been around SINCE 'time', correct?
Minds exist since the beginning of time does not mean that minds came to exist! Things have a beginning excluding minds. It is simply meaningless to ask whether minds existed before the beginning of time.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm To me, reality consists of minds and qualia. Minimally there are two minds one causes qualia that I perceive and another mind is mine. An object in my view can only exist if there are more minds that are responsible for moving qualia in reality. What is an object? An assembly of minds that exchange qualia with each other and form an entity.
So you believe your mind is imbedded in a greater mind, which causes qualia.
My mind is embedded inside qualia that are caused by another/other mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm You mind directly perceives these Qualia, which the supermind has produced.
Yes, if there are only two minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm The light which is being projected, IS the qualia itself, as are all objects.
The light is qualia. What do you mean with as are all objects?
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Nothing exists except the mind, and the qualia.
Yes.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm What if instead of calling the greater mind a mind, we call it existence, which would make the objects also part of that existence.
What do you mean by existence? I have a precise definition for mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm What happens when you die, do the qualia remain, or do they cease?
My mind remains. If objectivism is true then my body decay since it is an object but minds within my body including my mind remain.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Are the qualia dependent on your mind, or independent?
Qualia is caused by mind/midns so it depends on mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If they are independent, how can you distinguish between the two ideas of mind independent objects, and mind independent qualia?
Qualia are not mind-independent.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If you say, the objects are the qualia, how can someone have a hallucination?
I already define objects. An object is no qualia. Hallucination is nothing more than qualia so it is caused by mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Or, maybe misidentify something, like mistake a rope for a snake? If your mind does not interpret the qualia, if it doesn’t assemble some internal model which acts as a proxy for whatever is out there, how do you account for these discrepancies?
Mind experience qualia as it is. It does not interpret the qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm Mind only directly experiences and causes qualia. If objectivism (by objectivism I mean that objects exist as it is illustrated in the previous comment) is really true then my mind experiences the qualia that are created in my brain by other minds which this of course is the result of light reflecting from an object and interact with my sensory system, etc. There are minds exchanging information in this chain.
So you do agree your sensory system has some work to do, to interpret that light pattern, and distinguish it as for example, a rope and not a snake.
That is the duty of the brain which is an object to deliver proper qualia to mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If there is some interpretation, then what you see in your mind is a representation of what is out there.
There is no interpretation. Mind just experiences qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Therefore there can be a difference between what is out there, and what is in the mind.
We cannot be sure about what is out there. I already asked you whether you have an argument for more than two minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm So there is something out there which the qualia refer to, which could be different from what they appear to be. This must be a mind independent object.
If objectivism is true then objects exist given the definition of the object.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm You might say, this object (qualia using your term) is dependent on the greater mind (existence in my term).
If objects exist then they cannot be dependent on a greater mind since the object is made of mind and qualia as it is illustrated.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm I would agree that objects require existence. They must be imbedded in some existent framework. We call this the universe, you call it a universal mind. Seems like semantics now.
Object is not embedded in a universal mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm See it seems you want qualia to be able to do all the work that the current understanding of the physical universe does, such as having physical properties, mass, momentum, etc.
Yes.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Would you say then that physicists are studying and describing the behaviour of qualia and the universal mind?
Physicists study and describe minds and qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm Of course, I am not denying that there are at least two minds. My view is, however, idealism by which I mean that mind is fundamental and qualia are due to mind.
Does this universal mind have the same property as our mind being awareness? Does it know that it exists?
Any mind experiences but it is not necessary self-aware.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm I want to understand if there is any difference between this greater mind, and what others might term, existence?
What do you mean with existence?
Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:33 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:43 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:29 pm
Minds have existed since the beginning of time. So there is no first mind or lasat mind.
SO, as I have asked you BEFORE, HOW MANY 'minds' ARE THERE?
At least two, at most many.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm WHO and/what OWNS these so-called 'mind' THINGS, ('you' after all keep TELLING us that it is “YOUR" 'mind' that does things)?
Anything that can cause change.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW do these 'mind' THINGS MOVE and CHANGE physical objects?
Mind causes qualia. An object is constituted of minds that they are interacting via qualia. Minds within an object experience qualia caused by other minds too so they can be affected.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW did these ’mind' THINGS came to EXIST with 'time'?
Minds simply exist. They didn't come to exist.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW did these 'mind' THINGS CREATE physical objects, like the Universe, Itself, when 'time', supposedly, BEGAN?
Minds experience and create qualia. The first qualia came out of nothing.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm WHAT came FIRST, 'time', 'mind', or ' physicality'?
Minds simply exist. Time and qualia come to exist together at the beginning of time and everything else.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW does it logically follow that 'mind' is needed for change to happen, if 'mind' only came about since 'time' BEGAN?
Minds simply exist.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm OBVIOUSLY, 'time' can NOT occur, if 'change' is NOT occuring, and, according to "bahman“ “logic“ 'change' can NOT occur without 'mind' BUT 'mind' has only been around since 'time' began. Which is ALL VERY CONTRADICTORY and INCONSISTENT, as can be CLEARLY SEEN.
No, time is needed for change and it is not dependent on change.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:29 pm
Mind cannot be created or destroyed.
SO, HOW could these 'mind' THINGS, which 'you' SAY there is more than one of, NOT be existing eternally? You have CLAIMED that THEY have only been around SINCE 'time', correct?
Minds exist since the beginning of time does not mean that minds came to exist! Things have a beginning excluding minds. It is simply meaningless to ask whether minds existed before the beginning of time.
It is simply meaningless and Truly USELESS to ask you to CLARIFY things here because your responses are, INCONSISTENT and CONTRADICTORY, and thus, literally, MEANINGLESS, to say the least.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:22 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:33 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:43 am

SO, as I have asked you BEFORE, HOW MANY 'minds' ARE THERE?
At least two, at most many.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm WHO and/what OWNS these so-called 'mind' THINGS, ('you' after all keep TELLING us that it is “YOUR" 'mind' that does things)?
Anything that can cause change.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW do these 'mind' THINGS MOVE and CHANGE physical objects?
Mind causes qualia. An object is constituted of minds that they are interacting via qualia. Minds within an object experience qualia caused by other minds too so they can be affected.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW did these ’mind' THINGS came to EXIST with 'time'?
Minds simply exist. They didn't come to exist.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW did these 'mind' THINGS CREATE physical objects, like the Universe, Itself, when 'time', supposedly, BEGAN?
Minds experience and create qualia. The first qualia came out of nothing.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm WHAT came FIRST, 'time', 'mind', or ' physicality'?
Minds simply exist. Time and qualia come to exist together at the beginning of time and everything else.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm HOW does it logically follow that 'mind' is needed for change to happen, if 'mind' only came about since 'time' BEGAN?
Minds simply exist.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm OBVIOUSLY, 'time' can NOT occur, if 'change' is NOT occuring, and, according to "bahman“ “logic“ 'change' can NOT occur without 'mind' BUT 'mind' has only been around since 'time' began. Which is ALL VERY CONTRADICTORY and INCONSISTENT, as can be CLEARLY SEEN.
No, time is needed for change and it is not dependent on change.
Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:21 pm

SO, HOW could these 'mind' THINGS, which 'you' SAY there is more than one of, NOT be existing eternally? You have CLAIMED that THEY have only been around SINCE 'time', correct?
Minds exist since the beginning of time does not mean that minds came to exist! Things have a beginning excluding minds. It is simply meaningless to ask whether minds existed before the beginning of time.
It is simply meaningless and Truly USELESS to ask you to CLARIFY things here because your responses are, INCONSISTENT and CONTRADICTORY, and thus, literally, MEANINGLESS, to say the least.
So I won't waste my time on you anymore.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:54 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:32 pm I just want to prove that mind exists since change exists.
just want to??

Whatever your feelings and intent, your argument must be valid and sound, but so far that is not the case.
My argument is sound and valid.
I have shown it is otherwise.
Your premises do not follow and your argument is corrupted with the fallacy of equivocation.
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attofishpi
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by attofishpi »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:19 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
Whatever we perceive by our limited perception IS reality. If we are perceiving an abstraction of a prior reality, that we are in a simulation, then Y would we be in this secondary reality?
There is one reality that is made of minds and qualia, a sort of idealism. What we experience is created by other minds therefore we are living in simulating reality.
A simulation is pretty much defined as a fabrication of something. So Y do U think there are 'other minds' that are fabricating the reality of your mind, indeed all of ours as per 'we' in the thread title? Is it for fun? ..to analyse us? etc..?
Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:07 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:22 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:33 pm
At least two, at most many.


Anything that can cause change.


Mind causes qualia. An object is constituted of minds that they are interacting via qualia. Minds within an object experience qualia caused by other minds too so they can be affected.


Minds simply exist. They didn't come to exist.


Minds experience and create qualia. The first qualia came out of nothing.


Minds simply exist. Time and qualia come to exist together at the beginning of time and everything else.


Minds simply exist.


No, time is needed for change and it is not dependent on change.


Minds exist since the beginning of time does not mean that minds came to exist! Things have a beginning excluding minds. It is simply meaningless to ask whether minds existed before the beginning of time.
It is simply meaningless and Truly USELESS to ask you to CLARIFY things here because your responses are, INCONSISTENT and CONTRADICTORY, and thus, literally, MEANINGLESS, to say the least.
So I won't waste my time on you anymore.
Okay.

If you are NOT ABLE TO CLARIFY without CONTRADICTING “yourself“, then you are NOT ABLE TO.
Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:54 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:32 pm I just want to prove that mind exists since change exists.
just want to??

Whatever your feelings and intent, your argument must be valid and sound, but so far that is not the case.
My argument is sound and valid.
You have been SHOWN, MANY TIMES now, “bahman“, HOW and WHY your argument here is NOT sound and valid.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:40 am A simulation is pretty much defined as a fabrication of something. So Y do U think there are 'other minds' that are fabricating the reality of your mind, indeed all of ours as per 'we' in the thread title? Is it for fun? ..to analyse us? etc..?
A good issue to bring up. In the OP he actually says 'simulating reality', which may or may not mean it is a simulation. It strikes me as a kind of oxymoron, though it depends a bit on what part of speech simulating is and what the whole thing means.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:40 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:19 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:27 pm

Whatever we perceive by our limited perception IS reality. If we are perceiving an abstraction of a prior reality, that we are in a simulation, then Y would we be in this secondary reality?
There is one reality that is made of minds and qualia, a sort of idealism. What we experience is created by other minds therefore we are living in simulating reality.
A simulation is pretty much defined as a fabrication of something. So Y do U think there are 'other minds' that are fabricating the reality of your mind, indeed all of ours as per 'we' in the thread title? Is it for fun? ..to analyse us? etc..?
Any motion is due to a mind. There are motions that I experience that are not due to my mind. Therefore, there are minds that create the reality that I experience.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by attofishpi »

bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:41 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:40 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:19 pm
There is one reality that is made of minds and qualia, a sort of idealism. What we experience is created by other minds therefore we are living in simulating reality.
A simulation is pretty much defined as a fabrication of something. So Y do U think there are 'other minds' that are fabricating the reality of your mind, indeed all of ours as per 'we' in the thread title? Is it for fun? ..to analyse us? etc..?
Any motion is due to a mind. There are motions that I experience that are not due to my mind.
Ok, so Y?

bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:41 pmTherefore, there are minds that create the reality that I experience.
Y plural, as in mind(s) and not a mind? Indeed, since we are talking about some entity simulating reality, Y not consider it "NON" conscious - I call it, cold logic AI.?
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