We are living in simulating reality

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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:53 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:41 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:40 am

A simulation is pretty much defined as a fabrication of something. So Y do U think there are 'other minds' that are fabricating the reality of your mind, indeed all of ours as per 'we' in the thread title? Is it for fun? ..to analyse us? etc..?
Any motion is due to a mind. There are motions that I experience that are not due to my mind.
Ok, so Y?
Because of the argument from motion: Consider a change, A to B. To be B there must not be A. There is however nothing when there is no A and nothing cannot cause B. Therefore, there must be a mind that experiences A and causes B. The mind should be able to experience A since otherwise, it cannot cause B that is related to A. Therefore, the mind that causes the change is conscious.
attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:53 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:41 pmTherefore, there are minds that create the reality that I experience.
Y plural, as in mind(s) and not a mind?
It could be one mind. That is a possibility.
attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:53 pm Indeed, since we are talking about some entity simulating reality, Y not consider it "NON" conscious - I call it, cold logic AI.?
I already showed that for the mind to cause B which is related to A, the mind must be able to experience A. So whatever causes a change must be conscious.
trokanmariel
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by trokanmariel »

Bad weather, as a metaphor society rival to the natural law, the universe's naming for deities, can be a sleep inducer to the naming ideology by/for theology being connected to the public/private expression logic differences dimension, of the peoples of Earth, so that said public/private expression logic differences can be turned into a physical hall of mirrors of philosophy collections, of the abstract by nihilism, that the entirety of the matter universe is theology, whose logic is non-activation, and whose receiver is the humour of computation from data
Dimebag
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Dimebag »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:25 pm
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm To me, reality consists of minds and qualia. Minimally there are two minds one causes qualia that I perceive and another mind is mine. An object in my view can only exist if there are more minds that are responsible for moving qualia in reality. What is an object? An assembly of minds that exchange qualia with each other and form an entity.
So you believe your mind is imbedded in a greater mind, which causes qualia.
My mind is embedded inside qualia that are caused by another/other mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm You mind directly perceives these Qualia, which the supermind has produced.
Yes, if there are only two minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm The light which is being projected, IS the qualia itself, as are all objects.
The light is qualia. What do you mean with as are all objects?
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Nothing exists except the mind, and the qualia.
Yes.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm What if instead of calling the greater mind a mind, we call it existence, which would make the objects also part of that existence.
What do you mean by existence? I have a precise definition for mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm What happens when you die, do the qualia remain, or do they cease?
My mind remains. If objectivism is true then my body decay since it is an object but minds within my body including my mind remain.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Are the qualia dependent on your mind, or independent?
Qualia is caused by mind/midns so it depends on mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If they are independent, how can you distinguish between the two ideas of mind independent objects, and mind independent qualia?
Qualia are not mind-independent.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If you say, the objects are the qualia, how can someone have a hallucination?
I already define objects. An object is no qualia. Hallucination is nothing more than qualia so it is caused by mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Or, maybe misidentify something, like mistake a rope for a snake? If your mind does not interpret the qualia, if it doesn’t assemble some internal model which acts as a proxy for whatever is out there, how do you account for these discrepancies?
Mind experience qualia as it is. It does not interpret the qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm Mind only directly experiences and causes qualia. If objectivism (by objectivism I mean that objects exist as it is illustrated in the previous comment) is really true then my mind experiences the qualia that are created in my brain by other minds which this of course is the result of light reflecting from an object and interact with my sensory system, etc. There are minds exchanging information in this chain.
So you do agree your sensory system has some work to do, to interpret that light pattern, and distinguish it as for example, a rope and not a snake.
That is the duty of the brain which is an object to deliver proper qualia to mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If there is some interpretation, then what you see in your mind is a representation of what is out there.
There is no interpretation. Mind just experiences qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Therefore there can be a difference between what is out there, and what is in the mind.
We cannot be sure about what is out there. I already asked you whether you have an argument for more than two minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm So there is something out there which the qualia refer to, which could be different from what they appear to be. This must be a mind independent object.
If objectivism is true then objects exist given the definition of the object.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm You might say, this object (qualia using your term) is dependent on the greater mind (existence in my term).
If objects exist then they cannot be dependent on a greater mind since the object is made of mind and qualia as it is illustrated.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm I would agree that objects require existence. They must be imbedded in some existent framework. We call this the universe, you call it a universal mind. Seems like semantics now.
Object is not embedded in a universal mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm See it seems you want qualia to be able to do all the work that the current understanding of the physical universe does, such as having physical properties, mass, momentum, etc.
Yes.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Would you say then that physicists are studying and describing the behaviour of qualia and the universal mind?
Physicists study and describe minds and qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:45 pm Of course, I am not denying that there are at least two minds. My view is, however, idealism by which I mean that mind is fundamental and qualia are due to mind.
Does this universal mind have the same property as our mind being awareness? Does it know that it exists?
Any mind experiences but it is not necessary self-aware.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm I want to understand if there is any difference between this greater mind, and what others might term, existence?
What do you mean with existence?
So you admit there are objects to which qualia represent?

I thought you said there is only mind and qualia?

So are there also objects? Is there a world outside of qualia?

If there ARE objects, where do these objects exist? Inside the great mind, or somewhere else?

Or are these objects somehow tied to the qualia? Like, objects have qualitative properties like size, colour, etc?

If there ARE objects, how can this view be idealism?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:53 am
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:25 pm
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
So you believe your mind is imbedded in a greater mind, which causes qualia.
My mind is embedded inside qualia that are caused by another/other mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm You mind directly perceives these Qualia, which the supermind has produced.
Yes, if there are only two minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm The light which is being projected, IS the qualia itself, as are all objects.
The light is qualia. What do you mean with as are all objects?
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Nothing exists except the mind, and the qualia.
Yes.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm What if instead of calling the greater mind a mind, we call it existence, which would make the objects also part of that existence.
What do you mean by existence? I have a precise definition for mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm What happens when you die, do the qualia remain, or do they cease?
My mind remains. If objectivism is true then my body decay since it is an object but minds within my body including my mind remain.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Are the qualia dependent on your mind, or independent?
Qualia is caused by mind/midns so it depends on mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If they are independent, how can you distinguish between the two ideas of mind independent objects, and mind independent qualia?
Qualia are not mind-independent.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If you say, the objects are the qualia, how can someone have a hallucination?
I already define objects. An object is no qualia. Hallucination is nothing more than qualia so it is caused by mind/minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Or, maybe misidentify something, like mistake a rope for a snake? If your mind does not interpret the qualia, if it doesn’t assemble some internal model which acts as a proxy for whatever is out there, how do you account for these discrepancies?
Mind experience qualia as it is. It does not interpret the qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
So you do agree your sensory system has some work to do, to interpret that light pattern, and distinguish it as for example, a rope and not a snake.
That is the duty of the brain which is an object to deliver proper qualia to mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If there is some interpretation, then what you see in your mind is a representation of what is out there.
There is no interpretation. Mind just experiences qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Therefore there can be a difference between what is out there, and what is in the mind.
We cannot be sure about what is out there. I already asked you whether you have an argument for more than two minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm So there is something out there which the qualia refer to, which could be different from what they appear to be. This must be a mind independent object.
If objectivism is true then objects exist given the definition of the object.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm You might say, this object (qualia using your term) is dependent on the greater mind (existence in my term).
If objects exist then they cannot be dependent on a greater mind since the object is made of mind and qualia as it is illustrated.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm I would agree that objects require existence. They must be imbedded in some existent framework. We call this the universe, you call it a universal mind. Seems like semantics now.
Object is not embedded in a universal mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm See it seems you want qualia to be able to do all the work that the current understanding of the physical universe does, such as having physical properties, mass, momentum, etc.
Yes.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Would you say then that physicists are studying and describing the behaviour of qualia and the universal mind?
Physicists study and describe minds and qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm
Does this universal mind have the same property as our mind being awareness? Does it know that it exists?
Any mind experiences but it is not necessary self-aware.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm I want to understand if there is any difference between this greater mind, and what others might term, existence?
What do you mean with existence?
So you admit there are objects to which qualia represent?
Yes, if objectivism is true given the definition of the object.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm I thought you said there is only mind and qualia?
Yes, there is only minds and qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm So are there also objects?
Yes.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Is there a world outside of qualia?
No. Minds are embedded in qualia. Of course, if minds are local, by which I mean that they cause and experience qualia locally, instead of non-local. A world in which the experience is local and the world is made of local minds and qualia is easy to understand. It is extremely difficult to imagine such a world by non-local minds.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If there ARE objects, where do these objects exist?
In space where space is qualia too.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Inside the great mind, or somewhere else?
No.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm Or are these objects somehow tied to the qualia? Like, objects have qualitative properties like size, colour, etc?
I already explained what objects and perceptions are. I can explain them again if you wish.
Dimebag wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:10 pm If there ARE objects, how can this view be idealism?
There is no conflict. Given the fact that qualia, the subject of experience, are by-products of minds then we are dealing with idealism. If objectivism is true then we are dealing with realism too.
popeye1945
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
I am not sure simulating is the proper word for it, but perhaps, as reality is reaction to what is called ultimate reality, aspects of ultimate reality that we are able to sense are apparent reality. The apparent is due to both this stimulus and the nature of our own biological condition, if our biological condition is changed so is our apparent reality. So at any given time, our apparent reality is dependent upon our given biological state in this subject-object relationship. In other words, apparent reality is a biological readout, it is our reactionary experience of aspects of ultimate reality.
Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:10 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
I am not sure simulating is the proper word for it, but perhaps, as reality is reaction to what is called ultimate reality, aspects of ultimate reality that we are able to sense are apparent reality. The apparent is due to both this stimulus and the nature of our own biological condition, if our biological condition is changed so is our apparent reality. So at any given time, our apparent reality is dependent upon our given biological state in this subject-object relationship. In other words, apparent reality is a biological readout, it is our reactionary experience of aspects of ultimate reality.
There is ONLY One 'Reality'.

'Perceived realities', of which there can be as many as there are perceiving creatures, do NOT necessarily have absolutely ANY thing to do with 'Reality', Itself.
popeye1945
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by popeye1945 »

Age.

You need to take that one reality up with the science of physics. They believe there is your everyday reality or apparent reality and there is an ultimate reality which is a place of no things. Ultimate reality is just a hodge podge of various energy waves/frequencies. So, then you have to ask yourself where do objects/things come from?
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