We are living in simulating reality

So what's really going on?

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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

DPMartin wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:46 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
hence the requirement of more than one witness

if Fred sees something it could be real or otherwise, if George sees something it could be real or otherwise. but if Fred and George see the same thing, then is it real?
No, George or Fred could be part of the simulation telling lies.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 5:01 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:14 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:20 pm All I want to say is that there is a motion then there is mind. How would you start an argument like that?
It just does not follow.
From your original intention, it is a problem of equivocation, i.e.
There is motion [empirical], then there is mind [pure reason].

if you correct it then it would be,
There is motion [empirical], then there is mind [empirical].

if the above is the argument, then bring the empirical evidence to justify such 'empirical based mind' exist.
No, the second line of argument does not follow.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:14 am
How would you start an argument like that?
Here is one way out for you on this;

There is motion [empirical], then there is a human-like mind [empirical].

The above is an empirical possibility, because we have evidence of existing human minds [empirical].
You can speculate there is a human-like-Mind [or minds] in a location 100 light years away in the universe generating reality for humans on Earth [like the Matrix].
Then you can confirm the above is real by bringing the empirical evidences to justify it is real.

The above is an empirical possibility because all the [bolded] relevant variables are empirically-based.
So the question is to bring the empirical evidence for verification, justification and testing.
It is an empirical possibility for the above empirical speculation to be real, but the possibility [based on current knowledge] is very low i.e. 0.00000001% possible.

So your original intention, i.e.
There is motion [empirical], then there is mind [pure reason].
it is a problem of equivocation, thus a non-starter.

also consider the alternative explanation,
That theists and you jumping to hasty conclusion is driven by a psychological impulse arising from an existential crisis - it is psychological soothing to jump to conclusion. You need to reflect on this alternative view.
Look, you don't want to say that the time of the big bang and the appearance of humans is the same!?
Of course, their timing different.
In addition the topic of 'time' is very contentious and I believe 'time' is entangled with the human conditions and not some thing that is absolutely independent by itself.

But the point remain,
whatever 'mind' you conclude it is must be empirically possible subject to available empirical evidences for verification, testing and justification.

You should ask yourself, what is the purpose of your claim where you do not support it with empirical possibility but merely insist upon it based on reasoning only. As I had stated this empty pursuit is driven by an unmodulated inherent psychological impulse in all humans.

IF your claim has no empirical possibility, it is mere rhetoric that will lead to a slippery slope by others culminating with the possible extermination of the human species, e.g. the mind of the Islamic God.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

DPMartin wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:46 pm hence the requirement of more than one witness

if Fred sees something it could be real or otherwise, if George sees something it could be real or otherwise. but if Fred and George see the same thing, then is it real?
NO?
Hey! you have a lot of knowledge you need updating.

All humans see the same thing is common visual illusions, e.g. bent-stick-water, a mirage in the desert, etc. but they are not real.
Are the bent vertical line below real?

Image

Note;
Mass hallucination is a phenomenon in which a large group of people, usually in physical proximity to each other, all experience the same hallucination simultaneously. Mass hallucination is a common explanation for mass UFO sightings, appearances of the Virgin Mary, and other paranormal phenomena.
https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Mass_hallucination[/b]
In most cases, mass hallucination refers to a combination of suggestion and pareidolia, wherein one person will see, or pretend to see, something unusual (like the face of Jesus in the burn-marks on a tortilla, or the face of a kidnapped girl on a blank billboard) and point it out to other people. Having been told what to look for, those other people will consciously or unconsciously convince themselves to recognize the apparition, and will in turn point it out to others.
-ibid
There are cases where a whole class of students went hysteric & berserk and it was reported they all saw some similar evil apparitions.
Dimebag
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Dimebag »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:51 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:27 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:18 pm What is the problem?
What's the problem with not thinking everything is qualia and mind?
Yes, everything is minds and qualia. Minds being primary and qualia are due to minds.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm You're making claims about all of reality when you are only in touch with yourself, by our own admission. You don't know if the same ontology holds everywhere.
It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more.
What if instead if conceding to you that for any change to happen in an object a mind causes it, I say for any change in an object to be perceived, a mind must first perceive that object and any changes which the object goes through.

You want to say that a mind must CAUSE the change. I agree that for change to be observed, a mind must be present. But I don’t believe the mind caused that change. For change to be perceived, we have several interdependent criteria:

We need,

1. A mind independent object (otherwise it’s just a hallucination, that only you see).
2. The mind independent object needs to have some EXTERNAL FORCE applied to it, I.e. Newton’s law.
3. The mind must have the ability to perceive that object, in this case, visually. The mind therefore needs eyes, and a functioning brain which interprets those sensory signals.
4. The object needs to be illuminated by an external light source, for the eyes to detect the light from the object, I.e. the medium in which the eyes detect the object.

Without all of these criteria, a change in an object cannot be perceived.

Now, we could ask, how does the perceptual system detect changes in that object, and represent them to the consciousness. This is where the mind becomes a key player, in the construction of the perception of change.
DPMartin
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by DPMartin »

bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 5:03 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:46 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
hence the requirement of more than one witness

if Fred sees something it could be real or otherwise, if George sees something it could be real or otherwise. but if Fred and George see the same thing, then is it real?
No, George or Fred could be part of the simulation telling lies.
nope, denial off the truth doesn't prove simulation, just proves your a liar
DPMartin
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by DPMartin »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:07 am
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:46 pm hence the requirement of more than one witness

if Fred sees something it could be real or otherwise, if George sees something it could be real or otherwise. but if Fred and George see the same thing, then is it real?
NO?
Hey! you have a lot of knowledge you need updating.

All humans see the same thing is common visual illusions, e.g. bent-stick-water, a mirage in the desert, etc. but they are not real.
Are the bent vertical line below real?

Image

Note;
Mass hallucination is a phenomenon in which a large group of people, usually in physical proximity to each other, all experience the same hallucination simultaneously. Mass hallucination is a common explanation for mass UFO sightings, appearances of the Virgin Mary, and other paranormal phenomena.
https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Mass_hallucination[/b]
In most cases, mass hallucination refers to a combination of suggestion and pareidolia, wherein one person will see, or pretend to see, something unusual (like the face of Jesus in the burn-marks on a tortilla, or the face of a kidnapped girl on a blank billboard) and point it out to other people. Having been told what to look for, those other people will consciously or unconsciously convince themselves to recognize the apparition, and will in turn point it out to others.
-ibid
There are cases where a whole class of students went hysteric & berserk and it was reported they all saw some similar evil apparitions.
saying something looks like something doesn't mean they know or believe or even suggest that what they see is a real thing. that's like saying a cloud looks like a bird means the person believes its a bird.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:36 am
bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 5:01 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:14 am
It just does not follow.
From your original intention, it is a problem of equivocation, i.e.
There is motion [empirical], then there is mind [pure reason].

if you correct it then it would be,
There is motion [empirical], then there is mind [empirical].

if the above is the argument, then bring the empirical evidence to justify such 'empirical based mind' exist.
No, the second line of argument does not follow.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:14 am

Here is one way out for you on this;

There is motion [empirical], then there is a human-like mind [empirical].

The above is an empirical possibility, because we have evidence of existing human minds [empirical].
You can speculate there is a human-like-Mind [or minds] in a location 100 light years away in the universe generating reality for humans on Earth [like the Matrix].
Then you can confirm the above is real by bringing the empirical evidences to justify it is real.

The above is an empirical possibility because all the [bolded] relevant variables are empirically-based.
So the question is to bring the empirical evidence for verification, justification and testing.
It is an empirical possibility for the above empirical speculation to be real, but the possibility [based on current knowledge] is very low i.e. 0.00000001% possible.

So your original intention, i.e.
There is motion [empirical], then there is mind [pure reason].
it is a problem of equivocation, thus a non-starter.

also consider the alternative explanation,
That theists and you jumping to hasty conclusion is driven by a psychological impulse arising from an existential crisis - it is psychological soothing to jump to conclusion. You need to reflect on this alternative view.
Look, you don't want to say that the time of the big bang and the appearance of humans is the same!?
Of course, their timing different.
In addition the topic of 'time' is very contentious and I believe 'time' is entangled with the human conditions and not some thing that is absolutely independent by itself.
Of course, time is changing so it is contingent as well.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:14 am But the point remain,
whatever 'mind' you conclude it is must be empirically possible subject to available empirical evidences for verification, testing and justification.

You should ask yourself, what is the purpose of your claim where you do not support it with empirical possibility but merely insist upon it based on reasoning only. As I had stated this empty pursuit is driven by an unmodulated inherent psychological impulse in all humans.

IF your claim has no empirical possibility, it is mere rhetoric that will lead to a slippery slope by others culminating with the possible extermination of the human species, e.g. the mind of the Islamic God.
I just want to prove that mind exists since change exists.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:51 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:27 pm What's the problem with not thinking everything is qualia and mind?
Yes, everything is minds and qualia. Minds being primary and qualia are due to minds.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm You're making claims about all of reality when you are only in touch with yourself, by our own admission. You don't know if the same ontology holds everywhere.
It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more.
What if instead if conceding to you that for any change to happen in an object a mind causes it, I say for any change in an object to be perceived, a mind must first perceive that object and any changes which the object goes through.

You want to say that a mind must CAUSE the change. I agree that for change to be observed, a mind must be present. But I don’t believe the mind caused that change. For change to be perceived, we have several interdependent criteria:

We need,

1. A mind independent object (otherwise it’s just a hallucination, that only you see).
Yes, that is qualia.
Dimebag wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am 2. The mind independent object needs to have some EXTERNAL FORCE applied to it, I.e. Newton’s law.
What is an object and what is force?
Dimebag wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am 3. The mind must have the ability to perceive that object, in this case, visually. The mind therefore needs eyes, and a functioning brain which interprets those sensory signals.
Mind does not need a sensory system in order to experience and cause change. In the case of humans, mind perceives what is constructed by brain.
Dimebag wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am 4. The object needs to be illuminated by an external light source, for the eyes to detect the light from the object, I.e. the medium in which the eyes detect the object.
That is again for mind in the case of humans by which I mean the mind that perceives qualia that are caused by the brain.
Dimebag wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am Without all of these criteria, a change in an object cannot be perceived.

Now, we could ask, how does the perceptual system detect changes in that object, and represent them to the consciousness. This is where the mind becomes a key player, in the construction of the perception of change.
Mind directly experiences qualia and causes a change in it.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

DPMartin wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:38 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 5:03 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:46 pm

hence the requirement of more than one witness

if Fred sees something it could be real or otherwise, if George sees something it could be real or otherwise. but if Fred and George see the same thing, then is it real?
No, George or Fred could be part of the simulation telling lies.
nope, denial off the truth doesn't prove simulation, just proves your a liar
What truth. The only truth that you are sure about it is that you experience.
Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:18 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:57 pm I already defined what mind does. It is a matter of necessity that mind experiences and causes qualia.
You certain asserted it, yes. But you are assuming that your experience and ontology is universal, despite the obvious epistemological problems entailed by you being in a simulation.
What is the problem?
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm Yes, you think all minds all reality must be like you. But it's just an assumption.
Yes, all mind must be like me if they cause motion.
BUT you are IN a SIMULATION, CORRECT?

THEREFORE, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing you SAY and CLAIM could be ABSOLUTELY False, Wrong, and Incorrect. This is because you could have been SIMULATED to SAY and CLAIM only 'that' which is False, Wrong, and Incorrect, correct?

Or, has your SIMULATED Creator MADE 'you' to ONLY SEE the opposite here?

Could your Creator MADE you to BELIEVE that whatever you SAY and CLAIM is ACTUALLY True, right, and correct?
Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:32 pm I just want to prove that mind exists since change exists.
Here we have a PRIME example of one SEEKING for absolutely ANY thing that might be able to prove true what they ALREADY BELIEVE is true.
Age
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:17 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:50 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:51 pm Yes, everything is minds and qualia. Minds being primary and qualia are due to minds.
Yes, I knew you believed that.
I wrote:
What's the problem with not thinking everything is qualia and mind?
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm You're making claims about all of reality when you are only in touch with yourself, by our own admission. You don't know if the same ontology holds everywhere.
It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more.
And again. I ask you how you can know things that are beyond your mind and you repeat your position. I know that is your position.
Again: It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more. How a motion could be due to my conscious mind and I am not aware of it?
How could ANY thing cause motion when it has NO direct contact with it?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:19 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:18 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm You certain asserted it, yes. But you are assuming that your experience and ontology is universal, despite the obvious epistemological problems entailed by you being in a simulation.
What is the problem?
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm Yes, you think all minds all reality must be like you. But it's just an assumption.
Yes, all mind must be like me if they cause motion.
BUT you are IN a SIMULATION, CORRECT?

THEREFORE, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing you SAY and CLAIM could be ABSOLUTELY False, Wrong, and Incorrect. This is because you could have been SIMULATED to SAY and CLAIM only 'that' which is False, Wrong, and Incorrect, correct?

Or, has your SIMULATED Creator MADE 'you' to ONLY SEE the opposite here?

Could your Creator MADE you to BELIEVE that whatever you SAY and CLAIM is ACTUALLY True, right, and correct?
Not everything is false. For example, I know that I experience.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:26 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:32 pm I just want to prove that mind exists since change exists.
Here we have a PRIME example of one SEEKING for absolutely ANY thing that might be able to prove true what they ALREADY BELIEVE is true.
We have been through this several times. You believe in regress which is absurd so I cannot help you with that.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:41 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:17 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:50 am Yes, I knew you believed that.
I wrote:



And again. I ask you how you can know things that are beyond your mind and you repeat your position. I know that is your position.
Again: It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more. How a motion could be due to my conscious mind and I am not aware of it?
How could ANY thing cause motion when it has NO direct contact with it?
Mind has direct contact with qualia when it experience qualia.
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