We are living in simulating reality

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bahman
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We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
mickthinks
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by mickthinks »

Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

mickthinks wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:01 pm Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
What do you mean by "something which is less than reality"?
Iwannaplato
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
Apart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:05 pm
mickthinks wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:01 pm Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
What do you mean by "something which is less than reality"?
The main thing I took my that response was that even if you are right that we cannot experience reality directly, there may still be a reality outside of us. And it would also be odd to call it a simulation, if there is nothing else. It would be a reality, just not one with external things. A form of idealism or phenomenalism.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:06 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
Apart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
I think our minds have local direct access to qualia. So no regress is involved.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:10 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:05 pm
mickthinks wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:01 pm Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
What do you mean by "something which is less than reality"?
The main thing I took my that response was that even if you are right that we cannot experience reality directly, there may still be a reality outside of us. And it would also be odd to call it a simulation, if there is nothing else. It would be a reality, just not one with external things. A form of idealism or phenomenalism.
By living in a simulating reality I didn't mean that the reality if there is any, is certainly a simulation. It could be, however. How? We have two things, minds, and qualia in substance dualism. Qualia are experienced and generated by the mind. We cannot directly experience other minds but only have access to the qualia they generate.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
1. There are NO such things as "our" 'minds'. When, and IF, 'you' ever ALSO LEARN and UNDERSTAND WHO the 'I' is, then 'you' will ALSO SEE and UNDERSTAND how "our minds" is a complete MISNOMER.

2. The body DIRECTLY experiences 'things'. IF ANY one wants to CLAIM, "But what is experienced could just be in a simulation", then that is fine. However, that could NOT refute that no matter how many of these supposed simulations could be existing they ALL HAVE TO be existing within A REALITY.

3. Therefore, there IS A REALITY, which we are ALL living IN.

Now, IF ANY one wants to CLAIM that 'they' are living IN a simulation, then evidence or proof do they have for THIS CLAIM?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
You are starting with an irrational unjustified claim, an assumption of dualism, i.e.
  • Property dualism, a view in the philosophy of mind and metaphysics which holds that, although the world is composed of just one kind of substance—the physical kind—there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties
    Epistemological dualism, the epistemological question of whether the world we see around us is the real world itself or merely an internal perceptual copy of that world generated by neural processes in our brain.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism
Because you begin with an ASSUMPTION, the mind is independent and separate from 'reality' there is no way you will EVER realize or know what is reality-in-itself. Thus to find an answer to what is reality on the basis of dualism or physical realism is a non-starter.

OTOH, it would be more realistic to determine [verify and justify within a FSK] what is 'real' based on experience and empirical evidence of emergences supported with rational philosophical reasoning.

At present the most reliable FSK to establish what is real [fact, truth, reality] is the scientific FSK-model.
Despite scientific facts are the most credible [albeit at best are polished conjectures] and to avoid Scientism, we must nevertheless subject those facts to further philosophical reasonings and scrutiny.

On this basis of reality, we must at all costs avoid the proclivities to harbor and ignore the philosophical realists urge to insist there is still something real out there independent of mind. Such ideas are a non-starter.

As such, we must adopt the view that the very realistic reality we have is that justifiable and verifiable reality from empirical evidence and supported by philosophical reasonings.

But the point is what is real in this case rest on a continuum of reality which stretch from what is highly real [90/100] to the extreme of a hallucination [real like mirage or those experienced by schizophrenics, 20/100, to a highly speculated simulated reality by highly evolved beings from light years away 1/100.

Note the contrast of my explanation of possible simulated reality [1/100] to your ASSUMPTION of a non-starter-impossible-to-be-real hypothesis.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:38 pm By living in a simulating reality I didn't mean that the reality if there is any, is certainly a simulation. It could be, however. How? We have two things, minds, and qualia in substance dualism. Qualia are experienced and generated by the mind. We cannot directly experience other minds but only have access to the qualia they generate.
If other minds generate qualia what we experience and qualia are experienced and generated by the mind, the it sure sounds like collaboration is possible. And if there are other minds, they aren't simulated. And I am not simulated. Not in any sense that could contrast these minds with reality. As in, it's not reality it's a simulation.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:28 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:06 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
Apart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
I think our minds have local direct access to qualia. So no regress is involved.
How do they manage direct access to something that is not them? Or, how does one part of the mind have direct access to another part? Then we have a sensing process with no intermediary. If that exists 'internally' how do we know it does not exist externally, especially given that all knowledge about sensory perception is based on experience of things not mind?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
1. There are NO such things as "our" 'minds'. When, and IF, 'you' ever ALSO LEARN and UNDERSTAND WHO the 'I' is, then 'you' will ALSO SEE and UNDERSTAND how "our minds" is a complete MISNOMER.
I have arguments in favor of minds but I am not going to discuss them with you.
Age wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm 2. The body DIRECTLY experiences 'things'. IF ANY one wants to CLAIM, "But what is experienced could just be in a simulation", then that is fine. However, that could NOT refute that no matter how many of these supposed simulations could be existing they ALL HAVE TO be existing within A REALITY.
Nonsense.
Age wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm 3. Therefore, there IS A REALITY, which we are ALL living IN.
Wrong.
Age wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm Now, IF ANY one wants to CLAIM that 'they' are living IN a simulation, then evidence or proof do they have for THIS CLAIM?
As I said.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
You are starting with an irrational unjustified claim, an assumption of dualism, i.e.
  • Property dualism, a view in the philosophy of mind and metaphysics which holds that, although the world is composed of just one kind of substance—the physical kind—there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties
    Epistemological dualism, the epistemological question of whether the world we see around us is the real world itself or merely an internal perceptual copy of that world generated by neural processes in our brain.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism
I am talking about my version of substance dualism in which there are minds and qualia, the mind being an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause qualia, and qualia is the subject of experience. I have several arguments in favor the substance dualism.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am Because you begin with an ASSUMPTION, the mind is independent and separate from 'reality' there is no way you will EVER realize or know what is reality-in-itself. Thus to find an answer to what is reality on the basis of dualism or physical realism is a non-starter.
Not, when substance dualism is established as the only viewpoint that describes reality well.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am OTOH, it would be more realistic to determine [verify and justify within a FSK] what is 'real' based on experience and empirical evidence of emergences supported with rational philosophical reasoning.
Empirical evidence alone cannot take you anywhere.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am At present the most reliable FSK to establish what is real [fact, truth, reality] is the scientific FSK-model.
Despite scientific facts are the most credible [albeit at best are polished conjectures] and to avoid Scientism, we must nevertheless subject those facts to further philosophical reasonings and scrutiny.

On this basis of reality, we must at all costs avoid the proclivities to harbor and ignore the philosophical realists urge to insist there is still something real out there independent of mind. Such ideas are a non-starter.

As such, we must adopt the view that the very realistic reality we have is that justifiable and verifiable reality from empirical evidence and supported by philosophical reasonings.

But the point is what is real in this case rest on a continuum of reality which stretch from what is highly real [90/100] to the extreme of a hallucination [real like mirage or those experienced by schizophrenics, 20/100, to a highly speculated simulated reality by highly evolved beings from light years away 1/100.

Note the contrast of my explanation of possible simulated reality [1/100] to your ASSUMPTION of a non-starter-impossible-to-be-real hypothesis.
And where is your philosophical reasoning based on the scientific FSK model?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

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Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:42 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:38 pm By living in a simulating reality I didn't mean that the reality if there is any, is certainly a simulation. It could be, however. How? We have two things, minds, and qualia in substance dualism. Qualia are experienced and generated by the mind. We cannot directly experience other minds but only have access to the qualia they generate.
If other minds generate qualia what we experience and qualia are experienced and generated by the mind, the it sure sounds like collaboration is possible.
I cannot follow you here.
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:42 am And if there are other minds, they aren't simulated. And I am not simulated. Not in any sense that could contrast these minds with reality. As in, it's not reality it's a simulation.
So you agree with me?
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:45 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:28 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:06 pm Apart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
I think our minds have local direct access to qualia. So no regress is involved.
How do they manage direct access to something that is not them?
It is what it is. It is a matter of necessity. I have any argument for that.
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:45 am Or, how does one part of the mind have direct access to another part?
The mind does not have parts.
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:45 am Then we have a sensing process with no intermediary. If that exists 'internally' how do we know it does not exist externally, especially given that all knowledge about sensory perception is based on experience of things not mind?
Without mind, you cannot experience anything.
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