We are living in simulating reality

So what's really going on?

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Iwannaplato
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

promethean75 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:58 pm "Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality."

If this is true, then the information in the statement itself might be false on account of it being part of, and produced by, the simulation.

Discuss.
Yes, for one thing, how did we determine it is not direct? Well, one way we have determined this is via science which has a model of perceiver via perception noticing things. This model includes models of reality, sensory physiology, distance, causal chains, how the brain/mind works, and came through obeservations. If it's a simulation all that research is called into question and it's model is NOT correct.

So, how do we know it is not direct in the context of This may all be a simulation. A simulation, according to Bahman is experienced directly.
Walker
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Walker »

bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:49 pm
Walker wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:42 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:33 pm
What do you mean?
Check out the red ... see more than red.
What is more than red? Any help?
The web is not reality.
The web is a sticky overlay, mistaken for reality.
How to escape the web, because we know why spiders weave webs.
Is this a problem?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

promethean75 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:05 am "Reality to me is made of two substances, minds and qualia, where the mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia and cause qualia. Therefore, what you experience, qualia, are constructed by other minds what I call simulating reality."

You should go with single substance modal dualism then because radical idealism/empiricism Berkeley style is difficult to defend. I wouldn't try it.

Okay, but do you agree that an 'objective' world of things (information) exists independently of any and all 'minds'?
Oh well, that is a difficult question: Could we have qualia without minds? The short answer is that qualia are reducible substances so they cannot exist without minds. So we are dealing with idealism which there are two substances, minds which are fundamental, and qualia which are due to minds. The reason is based on the argument from motion. Basically, everything which is in motion is contingent (I think you are familiar with my thread on this topic). The motion requires constant destruction and the creation of qualia that the creation is due to the mind. In reality, you cannot find a motionless entity. Therefore, everything is subjected to destruction and creation. Therefore qualia cannot exist without minds.
promethean75 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:05 am If so, then you should include that category of qualia in your thesis. As it stands, it gives the impression that all qualia is created by and dependent on some particular 'mind', since it isn't irreducible.
Yes, you got it.
promethean75 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:05 am If not, you'll end up having to posit a 'god' to explain how unobserved parts of the universe can exist.
We are dealing with minds that they do the work of God/gods.
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:45 am
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:05 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am
You are starting with an irrational unjustified claim, an assumption of dualism, i.e.
  • Property dualism, a view in the philosophy of mind and metaphysics which holds that, although the world is composed of just one kind of substance—the physical kind—there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties
    Epistemological dualism, the epistemological question of whether the world we see around us is the real world itself or merely an internal perceptual copy of that world generated by neural processes in our brain.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism
I am talking about my version of substance dualism in which there are minds and qualia, the mind being an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause qualia, and qualia is the subject of experience. I have several arguments in favor the substance dualism.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am Because you begin with an ASSUMPTION, the mind is independent and separate from 'reality' there is no way you will EVER realize or know what is reality-in-itself. Thus to find an answer to what is reality on the basis of dualism or physical realism is a non-starter.
Not, when substance dualism is established as the only viewpoint that describes reality well.
If you are stating reality is with [entangled] with minds, then I will agree with you.
Besides there is no minds if there are no humans.
No, of course, there are minds in absence of humans as far as there is motion.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am OTOH, it would be more realistic to determine [verify and justify within a FSK] what is 'real' based on experience and empirical evidence of emergences supported with rational philosophical reasoning.
Empirical evidence alone cannot take you anywhere.
Note I stated subjected to a FSK...supported with rational philosophical reasoning.
Are you saying scientific facts based on empirical evidences from the scientific FSK cannot take humanity anywhere?
It is a good tool but it cannot tell you what the truth is.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am At present the most reliable FSK to establish what is real [fact, truth, reality] is the scientific FSK-model.
Despite scientific facts are the most credible [albeit at best are polished conjectures] and to avoid Scientism, we must nevertheless subject those facts to further philosophical reasonings and scrutiny.

On this basis of reality, we must at all costs avoid the proclivities to harbor and ignore the philosophical realists urge to insist there is still something real out there independent of mind. Such ideas are a non-starter.

As such, we must adopt the view that the very realistic reality we have is that justifiable and verifiable reality from empirical evidence and supported by philosophical reasonings.

But the point is what is real in this case rest on a continuum of reality which stretch from what is highly real [90/100] to the extreme of a hallucination [real like mirage or those experienced by schizophrenics, 20/100, to a highly speculated simulated reality by highly evolved beings from light years away 1/100.

Note the contrast of my explanation of possible simulated reality [1/100] to your ASSUMPTION of a non-starter-impossible-to-be-real hypothesis.
And where is your philosophical reasoning based on the scientific FSK model?
I meant for scientific facts from the scientific FSK to be reliable, they must be subjected to philosophical reasonings.
This is why Philosophy of Science reinforces scientific facts with various qualifications of its limitations to avoid Scientism.
At present the majority of Physicists take philosophical reasonings into account when presenting their theories.

Note this Philosophy & Physics Course in Oxford University;
Physics and Philosophy are historically intertwined and each continues to contribute to developments in the other.
Philosophy played a crucial role in the two revolutions of 20th-century physics – namely, relativity and quantum mechanics – and continues to contribute both to foundational research in theoretical physics and to the articulation and critique of scientific method.
Conversely, discoveries in physics provide profound implications for philosophical inquiry, such as the nature of space and time and the behaviour of matter at the quantum realm. Students on this course can expect to investigate not only central developments in both subjects, but also this interplay.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergr ... philosophy#:
My point is,
if you want to consider simulated reality, then you need to approach it from emergences, experiences and empirical evidences with a scientific FSK then proceed to speculate on the possibility of a simulated reality.

I have raised numerous threads on this subject, e.g.

Anil Seth: Is Reality a Controlled Hallucination?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34077

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25316
I agree that the brain creates hallucinations but that is the mind that experiences them.
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Sculptor
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Sculptor »

Although perception is not a process rendering direct access to reality, does not mean we are not living in reality.
But it does mean that we can only ever have a partial appreciation and knowledge of that reality.

We know this from science which has ever extended our view point into new finer, larger, and more detailed aspects of reality. Such things as radio waves, x-rays, ultrsonic sound, subsonic sounds, seismic activity ad infinitem, have all enhanced our understanding our our otherwise limited perceptions.
Walker
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Walker »

Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:38 pm Although perception is not a process rendering direct access to reality, does not mean we are not living in reality.
Only insofar as delusion is considered to be an aspect of reality. Delusion exists within the context of reality, because there is nowhere else for delusion to exist.

However, in the sense that folks have the activated capacity to perceive, react to, and believe in delusion, then folks do not live in reality.

Everyone has delusions. Relationships with delusion, vary. The variance is clinging. Release clinging to thought, to silence thought, to live in reality without delusion.

Thought is change, change is detected by movement. One thought only, that does not move to another thought, is no change.
Iwannaplato
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:38 pm Although perception is not a process rendering direct access to reality, does not mean we are not living in reality.
Only insofar as delusion is considered to be an aspect of reality. Delusion exists within the context of reality, because there is nowhere else for delusion to exist.

However, in the sense that folks have the activated capacity to perceive, react to, and believe in delusion, then folks do not live in reality.

Everyone has delusions. Relationships with delusion, vary. The variance is clinging. Release clinging to thought, to silence thought, to live in reality without delusion.

Thought is change, change is detected by movement. One thought only, that does not move to another thought, is no change.
How do you know all this stuff about perception, delusion, what other people experience and do not, and what thought is (all thought it seems, not just yours)?

How did you acquire all this knowledge via delusion? including that of the workings of other minds and their contents? What makes you so sure your conclusions about reality apply to others if you are in delusion?
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:38 pm Although perception is not a process rendering direct access to reality, does not mean we are not living in reality.
But it does mean that we can only ever have a partial appreciation and knowledge of that reality.

We know this from science which has ever extended our view point into new finer, larger, and more detailed aspects of reality. Such things as radio waves, x-rays, ultrsonic sound, subsonic sounds, seismic activity ad infinitem, have all enhanced our understanding our our otherwise limited perceptions.
What reality is made of?
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Sculptor
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Sculptor »

Walker wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:38 pm Although perception is not a process rendering direct access to reality, does not mean we are not living in reality.
Only insofar as delusion is considered to be an aspect of reality. Delusion exists within the context of reality, because there is nowhere else for delusion to exist.

However, in the sense that folks have the activated capacity to perceive, react to, and believe in delusion, then folks do not live in reality.

Everyone has delusions. Relationships with delusion, vary. The variance is clinging. Release clinging to thought, to silence thought, to live in reality without delusion.

Thought is change, change is detected by movement. One thought only, that does not move to another thought, is no change.
Whether or not you chose to call it delusion, illusion, perception there is not doubt that we all "see" the world is different ways. This is because we cannot directly have access to reality.
No one sees exactly what is there. One can detract from Kant as much as one chooses but he was right about that.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:31 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:38 pm Although perception is not a process rendering direct access to reality, does not mean we are not living in reality.
But it does mean that we can only ever have a partial appreciation and knowledge of that reality.

We know this from science which has ever extended our view point into new finer, larger, and more detailed aspects of reality. Such things as radio waves, x-rays, ultrsonic sound, subsonic sounds, seismic activity ad infinitem, have all enhanced our understanding our our otherwise limited perceptions.
What reality is made of?
DO you mean to ask "what is reality made of?"
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bahman
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:54 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:31 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:38 pm Although perception is not a process rendering direct access to reality, does not mean we are not living in reality.
But it does mean that we can only ever have a partial appreciation and knowledge of that reality.

We know this from science which has ever extended our view point into new finer, larger, and more detailed aspects of reality. Such things as radio waves, x-rays, ultrsonic sound, subsonic sounds, seismic activity ad infinitem, have all enhanced our understanding our our otherwise limited perceptions.
What reality is made of?
DO you mean to ask "what is reality made of?"
Yes.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:21 pm
promethean75 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:05 am "Reality to me is made of two substances, minds and qualia, where the mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia and cause qualia. Therefore, what you experience, qualia, are constructed by other minds what I call simulating reality."

You should go with single substance modal dualism then because radical idealism/empiricism Berkeley style is difficult to defend. I wouldn't try it.

Okay, but do you agree that an 'objective' world of things (information) exists independently of any and all 'minds'?
Oh well, that is a difficult question: Could we have qualia without minds? The short answer is that qualia are reducible substances so they cannot exist without minds. So we are dealing with idealism which there are two substances, minds which are fundamental, and qualia which are due to minds. The reason is based on the argument from motion. Basically, everything which is in motion is contingent (I think you are familiar with my thread on this topic). The motion requires constant destruction and the creation of qualia that the creation is due to the mind. In reality, you cannot find a motionless entity.
WHY do you here say, "in reality “, when it is YOU here WHO is the one CLAIMING that you do NOT live in an ACTUAL ’reality'?

If, as you SAY, BELIEVE, and CLAIM is true, you live in a so-called 'simulated reality' ONLY, then there is NO ACTUAL'reality' that you could judge absolutely ANY thing UP ON.
bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:21 pmTherefore, everything is subjected to destruction and creation. Therefore qualia cannot exist without minds.
ONCE AGAIN, ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of ABSURD and ILLOGICAL, so-called, "reasoning", at its finest.
bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:21 pm
promethean75 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:05 am If so, then you should include that category of qualia in your thesis. As it stands, it gives the impression that all qualia is created by and dependent on some particular 'mind', since it isn't irreducible.
Yes, you got it.
promethean75 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:05 am If not, you'll end up having to posit a 'god' to explain how unobserved parts of the universe can exist.
We are dealing with minds that they do the work of God/gods.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:30 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:45 am
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:05 pm
I am talking about my version of substance dualism in which there are minds and qualia, the mind being an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause qualia, and qualia is the subject of experience. I have several arguments in favor the substance dualism.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am Because you begin with an ASSUMPTION, the mind is independent and separate from 'reality' there is no way you will EVER realize or know what is reality-in-itself. Thus to find an answer to what is reality on the basis of dualism or physical realism is a non-starter.
Not, when substance dualism is established as the only viewpoint that describes reality well.
If you are stating reality is with [entangled] with minds, then I will agree with you.
Besides there is no minds if there are no humans.
No, of course, there are minds in absence of humans as far as there is motion.
But there is no motion when there is no humans?

Here is a Zen wisdom to note;
  • “The wind was flapping the temple flag.
    Two monks were arguing about it.
    One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving. Arguing back and forth they could not agree on the truth.
    The Sixth Patriarch [Hui Neng] said, ‘It is neither the wind that is moving nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is moving’.
    The two monks were struck with awe”

So no minds, no motion.
If you are not familiar with Zen, Zen views of reality are arrived from very deep reflection of reality.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am
Empirical evidence alone cannot take you anywhere.
Note I stated subjected to a FSK...supported with rational philosophical reasoning.
Are you saying scientific facts based on empirical evidences from the scientific FSK cannot take humanity anywhere?
It is a good tool but it cannot tell you what the truth is.
What "truth" are you looking for? Absolute unconditional truths? Well they don't exist at all. There is no absolute truth-in-itself.

The most credible truths are from the science (also mathematics) even though they are at best mere polished conjectures. The most reliable truths are 'conjectures!' [polished].

Show me what other truths are more credible than those of science and mathematics?
The critical criteria for any truth is whether they are objective [rationally] and can contribute utility to mankind. Obviously you cannot deny this with scientific knowledge while acknowledging it has limitations as well.
I agree that the brain creates hallucinations but that is the mind that experiences them.
The brain is basically a physical thing thus do not create nor experiences.
It is the mind that generate hallucinations and experience them in separate functions [surely you are not ignorant of this?].

The human brain has many parts with separate functions so representing the multivariate mind.
Thus a mind [prefrontal cortex activities] can plan to have sex, drugs, entertainment, and the likes to trigger the pleasure center to generate pleasure within the mind.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:18 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:30 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:45 am



If you are stating reality is with [entangled] with minds, then I will agree with you.
Besides there is no minds if there are no humans.
No, of course, there are minds in absence of humans as far as there is motion.
But there is no motion when there is no humans?

Here is a Zen wisdom to note;
  • “The wind was flapping the temple flag.
    Two monks were arguing about it.
    One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving. Arguing back and forth they could not agree on the truth.
    The Sixth Patriarch [Hui Neng] said, ‘It is neither the wind that is moving nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is moving’.
    The two monks were struck with awe”

So no minds, no motion.
If you are not familiar with Zen, Zen views of reality are arrived from very deep reflection of reality.
You will not answer this, because you are absolutely CLOSED but what you accept and agree with comes from so-called “very deep reflection of reality“, and what you disagree with and do not accept comes from not a very deep reflection of reality, correct?

Also, again because of how CLOSED you REALLY ARE you OBVIOUSLY did NOT notice.the.BLATANT CONTRADICTION here in your words.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:18 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am
Note I stated subjected to a FSK...supported with rational philosophical reasoning.
Are you saying scientific facts based on empirical evidences from the scientific FSK cannot take humanity anywhere?
It is a good tool but it cannot tell you what the truth is.
What "truth" are you looking for? Absolute unconditional truths? Well they don't exist at all. There is no absolute truth-in-itself.
Here is ANOTHER BLATANT CONTRADICTION.

You are NOT YET AWARE of just how you are ACTUALLY DEFEATING your OWN CLAIMS and BELIEFS here.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:18 am The most credible truths are from the science (also mathematics) even though they are at best mere polished conjectures. The most reliable truths are 'conjectures!' [polished].



Show me what other truths are more credible than those of science and mathematics?
Through science and mathematics it is conjectured that the Universe BEGAN and IS EXPANDING, now are far more credible truth, which in fact is IRREFUTABLY, and thus ABSOLUTELY True is that the Universe did NOT begin and is NOT expanding.

There is but just one of countless other truths that are more credible than those that are conjectured up through science and/or mathematic.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:18 am The critical criteria for any truth is whether they are objective [rationally] and can contribute utility to mankind.
But, to you, objectivity does NOT even exist.

So, once again, the CONTRADICTION IS BLONDING and BLATANTLY OBVIOUS.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:18 am Obviously you cannot deny this with scientific knowledge while acknowledging it has limitations as well.
I agree that the brain creates hallucinations but that is the mind that experiences them.
The brain is basically a physical thing thus do not create nor experiences.
It is the mind that generate hallucinations and experience them in separate functions [surely you are not ignorant of this?].

The human brain has many parts with separate functions so representing the multivariate mind.
Thus a mind [prefrontal cortex activities] can plan to have sex, drugs, entertainment, and the likes to trigger the pleasure center to generate pleasure within the mind.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality

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bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:54 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:31 pm
What reality is made of?
DO you mean to ask "what is reality made of?"
Yes.
It's conceptual. It's a word we use to describe the world of matter and energy, which are also conceptual.
And, as I said above, as we have no direct access to it perceptually then all we say about it is also conceptual.
But there is no doubt that it is made of hard stuff and dangerous stuff, good and bad, fast and slow.
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