What is the real color of the apple?

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by CHNOPS »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:34 am
CHNOPS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:47 am
And how do photons manifest themselves as color?
When there are brains..... when interact with your eyes and then your brain.

The photons dont carry the color "red", they dont have colors. When they hit your brain, that moment of the hit... is when an experience ocurrs and we call it "seeing red".
Oh, ok. So photons hit your brain makes red. Then what do you need eyes for?

And why did all these stupid animals evolve bright colors to mean "danger" if everybody experiences color differently?
:roll:

When you sleep, you see colors, and you have your eyes closed. But that experience is telling you what you are imaginating, is not about what happens in your bedroom.

With eyes, you capture the photons in your bedroom, so the color that you experience is about what is happening in your bedroom...

We need eyes to know what happens outside the body....


If we see the spectrum of colors, and you point what "red" is for you, i will point almost the same, because we have almost the same brains...

A daltonic person, will differ with us. He will see other color sometimes. His brains is more diference to ours.

But I think that almost all animals will agree about the diference of bright or not-bright, that is why we agree in the consecuences of seeing TOO bright (danger, fire, hot, depredators arounds, whatever)
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by CHNOPS »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:50 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:47 am
And how do photons manifest themselves as color?
When there are brains..... when interact with your eyes and then your brain.

The photons dont carry the color "red", they dont have colors. When they hit your brain, that moment of the hit... is when an experience ocurrs and we call it "seeing red".
How do you know that photon is not qualia?
I'm not saying that....

I am saying that photons are not red on its owns, without brains.

How old are you?


I think i am talking with kids in this forum.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:50 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:47 am

When there are brains..... when interact with your eyes and then your brain.

The photons dont carry the color "red", they dont have colors. When they hit your brain, that moment of the hit... is when an experience ocurrs and we call it "seeing red".
How do you know that photon is not qualia?
I'm not saying that....

I am saying that photons are not red on its owns, without brains.

How old are you?


I think i am talking with kids in this forum.
Why brian and not mind? What is brain to you that allows experience?
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by CHNOPS »

bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:37 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:50 pm
How do you know that photon is not qualia?
I'm not saying that....

I am saying that photons are not red on its owns, without brains.

How old are you?


I think i am talking with kids in this forum.
Why brian and not mind? What is brain to you that allows experience?
For me, "mind" is just the thoughts and imagination of images, simbols, etc.

Brain is the matter that make that possible and more, like direct perception, emotions, sensations, etc, etc.

"make that possible" means that is a part of the existence that when it appears there are what we call "experience".

With that i am saying that brain dont neccesary CAUSE the experience. Is just that when there are experience, there are a brain state, there is a CORRELATION.


I am not materialist. I think all is perception (or "all is mind" if you have other definition of mind).


End even so, I dont say that the photon has color or the apple is red... without a brain.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by popeye1945 »

Apparent reality does not exist independent of us it exists because of us, apparent reality is the biological reaction to the aspects of ultimate reality upon us, which we then project outward. An apple has no color, color is a biological reaction to some aspects of stimulation read wave frequencies. If everything is wave frequencies then there is no such thing as a thing that is not dependent upon us. We are creators of meaning which we bestow upon a meaningless world. Somewhat differing biologies will have a somewhat differing apparent reality, biology defines all things.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:38 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:37 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 pm

I'm not saying that....

I am saying that photons are not red on its owns, without brains.

How old are you?


I think i am talking with kids in this forum.
Why brian and not mind? What is brain to you that allows experience?
For me, "mind" is just the thoughts and imagination of images, simbols, etc.

Brain is the matter that make that possible and more, like direct perception, emotions, sensations, etc, etc.

"make that possible" means that is a part of the existence that when it appears there are what we call "experience".

With that i am saying that brain dont neccesary CAUSE the experience. Is just that when there are experience, there are a brain state, there is a CORRELATION.


I am not materialist. I think all is perception (or "all is mind" if you have other definition of mind).


End even so, I dont say that the photon has color or the apple is red... without a brain.
To me, mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. The brain does nothing but provides qualia that can be experienced by the conscious mind.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:29 am Apparent reality does not exist independent of us it exists because of us, apparent reality is the biological reaction to the aspects of ultimate reality upon us, which we then project outward. An apple has no color, color is a biological reaction to some aspects of stimulation read wave frequencies. If everything is wave frequencies then there is no such thing as a thing that is not dependent upon us. We are creators of meaning which we bestow upon a meaningless world. Somewhat differing biologies will have a somewhat differing apparent reality, biology defines all things.
I am not sure whether that is a good argument for reality does not exist independent of us. You need to define reality and us.
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by CHNOPS »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:55 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:38 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:37 pm
Why brian and not mind? What is brain to you that allows experience?
For me, "mind" is just the thoughts and imagination of images, simbols, etc.

Brain is the matter that make that possible and more, like direct perception, emotions, sensations, etc, etc.

"make that possible" means that is a part of the existence that when it appears there are what we call "experience".

With that i am saying that brain dont neccesary CAUSE the experience. Is just that when there are experience, there are a brain state, there is a CORRELATION.


I am not materialist. I think all is perception (or "all is mind" if you have other definition of mind).


End even so, I dont say that the photon has color or the apple is red... without a brain.
To me, mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. The brain does nothing but provides qualia that can be experienced by the conscious mind.
So the brain provide the "red". Without brain there is no "red".
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:58 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:29 am Apparent reality does not exist independent of us it exists because of us, apparent reality is the biological reaction to the aspects of ultimate reality upon us, which we then project outward. An apple has no color, color is a biological reaction to some aspects of stimulation read wave frequencies. If everything is wave frequencies then there is no such thing as a thing that is not dependent upon us. We are creators of meaning which we bestow upon a meaningless world. Somewhat differing biologies will have a somewhat differing apparent reality, biology defines all things.
I am not sure whether that is a good argument for reality does not exist independent of us. You need to define reality and us.
bahman.

Reality, it depends upon which reality you are referring to, apparent/everyday life or ultimate reality the concern of physicists. Apparent reality is a biological readout, in other words, so much stimulus is sensed as reaction to and then projected out as apparent reality it is reactionary as all organisms are reactionary creatures. Ultimate reality includes those aspects we can sense and all the aspects we cannot sense, it is the totality. Hope this helps.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:16 am
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:55 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:38 pm

For me, "mind" is just the thoughts and imagination of images, simbols, etc.

Brain is the matter that make that possible and more, like direct perception, emotions, sensations, etc, etc.

"make that possible" means that is a part of the existence that when it appears there are what we call "experience".

With that i am saying that brain dont neccesary CAUSE the experience. Is just that when there are experience, there are a brain state, there is a CORRELATION.


I am not materialist. I think all is perception (or "all is mind" if you have other definition of mind).


End even so, I dont say that the photon has color or the apple is red... without a brain.
To me, mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. The brain does nothing but provides qualia that can be experienced by the conscious mind.
So the brain provide the "red". Without brain there is no "red".
Yes, the brain provides the qualia of red for the conscious mind. I don't know how reality looks like to the conscious mind without a brain.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:06 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:58 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:29 am Apparent reality does not exist independent of us it exists because of us, apparent reality is the biological reaction to the aspects of ultimate reality upon us, which we then project outward. An apple has no color, color is a biological reaction to some aspects of stimulation read wave frequencies. If everything is wave frequencies then there is no such thing as a thing that is not dependent upon us. We are creators of meaning which we bestow upon a meaningless world. Somewhat differing biologies will have a somewhat differing apparent reality, biology defines all things.
I am not sure whether that is a good argument for reality does not exist independent of us. You need to define reality and us.
bahman.

Reality, it depends upon which reality you are referring to, apparent/everyday life or ultimate reality the concern of physicists. Apparent reality is a biological readout, in other words, so much stimulus is sensed as reaction to and then projected out as apparent reality it is reactionary as all organisms are reactionary creatures. Ultimate reality includes those aspects we can sense and all the aspects we cannot sense, it is the totality. Hope this helps.
To me, reality is made of conscious minds and qualia where qualia are the by-product of minds.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by popeye1945 »

My meaning sounds different but I think we are saying the same thing, apparent reality is a projection of a conscious subject. In other words apparent reality is the experience of the body/mind.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6656
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Iwannaplato »

CHNOPS wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:16 am So the brain provide the "red". Without brain there is no "red".
Then it seems good to me to consider other qualities: weight, texture, size, location, shape...are these all qualia?
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by CHNOPS »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:37 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:16 am So the brain provide the "red". Without brain there is no "red".
Then it seems good to me to consider other qualities: weight, texture, size, location, shape...are these all qualia?
What I am saying is beyond of believing on qualias or not.

I dont believe in qualias, because I believe "all is perception", so, "all is qualias", and therefore there are no qualias....

Qualias or not, the relations are there, relations that make the "texture experience".

Without skin, how can you talk about "texture" ?

The others things you named, that are relations beyond brain.

In the moment that there is the firsts atoms, there are relations. That relations are "weight", "size", "location", "shape", etc.

And in that moment, there are not brain.


So, that relations didnt need a brain.

The "red" is a relation that implies a brain. "Size" not need a brain.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6656
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Iwannaplato »

CHNOPS wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:16 pm The "red" is a relation that implies a brain. "Size" not need a brain.
This sounds like red is a quale and size is not. But all is qualia. I am not sure what you meant. But that is why I brought up size and other qualities that seem at least not to need perception.
Post Reply