What is the real color of the apple?

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by henry quirk »

Do you have any argument against simulating world or Matrix?
Parsimony.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:10 pm
Do you have any argument against simulating world or Matrix?
Parsimony.
So you don't have an argument!
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:16 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:10 pm
Do you have any argument against simulating world or Matrix?
Parsimony.
So you don't have an argument!
Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:16 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:10 pm

Parsimony.
So you don't have an argument!
Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
I have an argument that we are living in simulating reality.
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:16 pm
So you don't have an argument!
Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
I have an argument that we are living in simulating reality.
LOL you have to be JOKING here right "bahman"?

That is NOT an 'argument' AT ALL. That is just an ILLOGICALLY "reasoned out" BELIEF of yours.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:16 pm
So you don't have an argument!
Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
I have an argument that we are living in simulating reality.
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
Our minds, as our minds are inextricably intertwined with our substance, do access *reality directly.

And: we're back to square one.




*look here, biggy: ⚡️REALITY⚡️
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8477
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Sculptor »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:20 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:37 am The world exists, exists independent of us, and is apprehended by us as it is (*not in its entirety but as it is). We **apprehend it directly, without the aid of, or intervention of, [insert hypothetical whatsis] and without constructing a model or representation of the world somewhere in our heads.

*If you take into account perspective (where the observer stands in relation to the observed); intervening, inconstant, possible, distortions (water instead of atmosphere, for example); and the inherent limits of the observer himself; then what is seen is as it is.

**Direct realism, of course, is not just about sight. Hearing, taste, smell, touch: the entire interface of a person, as he's in the world, is the concern of the direct realist. That's why I define it as I do. Apprehension covers it all, the whole of a person's direct contact with the world.
0F87307C-7536-46D1-89AA-A9CD9E65DB9D.jpeg
1 & 2 sort of okay.
3 & 4 dubious.
There is no "direct" perception as perception is a system of interpretation.
Red is meaningless in the real world being wholly a perceptual creation. There are wavelengths as demonstrable to science but colour is something else, since there is nothing to mandate our perception of "red" with a specific wavelength except via knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:36 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:33 pm

Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
I have an argument that we are living in simulating reality.
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
Our minds, as our minds are inextricably intertwined with our substance, do access *reality directly.

And: we're back to square one.




*look here, biggy: ⚡️REALITY⚡️
Can you tell me why you don't have access to all reality and only a part of it?
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by CHNOPS »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:01 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm When the relation of brain-apple occurs, there is an experience that we call "seeing an apple".
Yes.
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm Apple is not "red" without a relation with a brain.
No. Apple just seems red.
So you dont understand the first part where you say "Yes".

"Red" is what happen when a brain is conected to an object, whatever a brain or an object is.

Without that relation, the arent "Red" things.
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Skepdick »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:33 pm Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
I would've thought "I don't know" would be the position most congruent with parsimony?
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Skepdick »

CHNOPS wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:04 pm So you dont understand the first part where you say "Yes".

"Red" is what happen when a brain is conected to an object, whatever a brain or an object is.

Without that relation, the arent "Red" things.
"Red" is what happens when you encode/represent your experiences in language.

The experience of this color is not "red". The experience of this color occurs outside of any linguistic representation.
Attachments
red.png
red.png (9.27 KiB) Viewed 1473 times
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:04 pm
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:01 pm
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm When the relation of brain-apple occurs, there is an experience that we call "seeing an apple".
Yes.
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm Apple is not "red" without a relation with a brain.
No. Apple just seems red.
So you dont understand the first part where you say "Yes".

"Red" is what happen when a brain is conected to an object, whatever a brain or an object is.

Without that relation, the arent "Red" things.
The brain doesn't directly connect with other objects.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by henry quirk »

Skepdick wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:11 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:33 pm Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
I would've thought "I don't know" would be the position most congruent with parsimony?
Parsimony is not agnosticism; it's just stinginess.
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Skepdick »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:36 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:11 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:33 pm Parsimony is my argument.

As I can't prove, to you, the world is real, and as you can't prove, to me, the world is a simulation, I take the position the simpler of the two is probably true.

That is: the world exists, exists independent of me, is largely as I apprehend it, is more likely than the world is a simulation, an illusion.
I would've thought "I don't know" would be the position most congruent with parsimony?
Parsimony is not agnosticism; it's just stinginess.
Parsimony is agnosticism! I am so stingy that I offer no hypothesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotheses_non_fingo
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:30 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:36 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:34 pm
I have an argument that we are living in simulating reality.
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 9:32 pm Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
Our minds, as our minds are inextricably intertwined with our substance, do access *reality directly.

And: we're back to square one.




*look here, biggy: ⚡️REALITY⚡️
Can you tell me why you don't have access to all reality and only a part of it?
I'm finite, limited. I stand in one place at a time. I see only where I direct my eyes. etc.
Post Reply