What is the real color of the apple?

So what's really going on?

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Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:17 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:38 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm
You cannot be sure.
I CAN, and AM.

There is, OBVIOUSLY, a so-called, 'true reality' AND 'real color', but what they ARE, EXACTLY, all depends.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm We are not sure whether the world is real or not.
WHY NOT?

I AM.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm I have no argument against or in favor of it.
So prove that the real color of apple is red.
LOL
LOL
LOL

Talk about MISSING the point, AGAIN.

Lol who is saying the 'real color' of an apple is 'red'?
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:07 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
What are your proofs?
Just the ONE. That is; the REAL One.

See it would NOT matter one iota how many 'simulated worlds' NOR 'matrix's', which MIGHT exist, they ALL would HAVE TO exist in A 'REAL world'.

Or, in other words, in thee One and ONLY 'REAL world'.
That is just a claim.
OF COURSE it IS.

It is ALSO a PROVED Fact. Therefore, it IS , a claim that can NOT be refuted by ANY one.

So, that CLAIM IS an IRREFUTABLE True, Right, Accurate, or Correct Fact.Understood?
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
I already explained that in OP. There is a distance between the object and experience that happens in your heads and there are many things that intervene between.
So what?
Think through.
So, ONCE AGAIN, you are NOT ABLE TO clarify, further explain,NOR elaborate on your BELIEFS.

This is a good sign that you do NOT YET REALLY understand NOR know the subject which you speak of.
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
NO.
What HAS TO ENTAIL, EXACTLY, for 'you' to be ABLE to experience SOME 'thing' 'directly'.
There is no direct experience of apple in human case.
LOL

Do you NOT understand the english language, NOT understand what is being asked, or just do NOT understand?

Or, are you PURPOSELY just 'trying to' DEFLECT?
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 4:58 am
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:17 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:38 am

I CAN, and AM.

There is, OBVIOUSLY, a so-called, 'true reality' AND 'real color', but what they ARE, EXACTLY, all depends.



WHY NOT?

I AM.
So prove that the real color of apple is red.
LOL
LOL
LOL

Talk about MISSING the point, AGAIN.

Lol who is saying the 'real color' of an apple is 'red'?
That was you who said: "WHY NOT? I AM"
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:12 am
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:07 am

Just the ONE. That is; the REAL One.

See it would NOT matter one iota how many 'simulated worlds' NOR 'matrix's', which MIGHT exist, they ALL would HAVE TO exist in A 'REAL world'.

Or, in other words, in thee One and ONLY 'REAL world'.
That is just a claim.
OF COURSE it IS.

It is ALSO a PROVED Fact. Therefore, it IS , a claim that can NOT be refuted by ANY one.

So, that CLAIM IS an IRREFUTABLE True, Right, Accurate, or Correct Fact.Understood?
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
So what?
Think through.
So, ONCE AGAIN, you are NOT ABLE TO clarify, further explain,NOR elaborate on your BELIEFS.

This is a good sign that you do NOT YET REALLY understand NOR know the subject which you speak of.
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am

What HAS TO ENTAIL, EXACTLY, for 'you' to be ABLE to experience SOME 'thing' 'directly'.
There is no direct experience of apple in human case.
LOL

Do you NOT understand the english language, NOT understand what is being asked, or just do NOT understand?

Or, are you PURPOSELY just 'trying to' DEFLECT?
I am ignoring this post since there is nothing to discuss.
CHNOPS
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by CHNOPS »

When the relation of brain-apple occurs, there is an experience that we call "seeing an apple".

Apple is not "red" without a relation with a brain.
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Sculptor
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Sculptor »

The whole point about the argument about qualia is that they are unique events for each of us.
No one can have the same experiences that I have.
You might be able to describe them is similar ways, even use exactly the same words. Yet for each of us even the words we use have individuals connotations, and relate to our unique experiences in our lives.
We can agree that an apple is red, but we can never know if my experience is like that of another person. A child knows this and may remark that when I see red you see what I see when I see blue and verse versa, but since we may never share the mind of another person are agreement about a colour is actually the agreement of a word to describe that colour.
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

Sculptor wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:46 pm The whole point about the argument about qualia is that they are unique events for each of us.
No one can have the same experiences that I have.
What 'you' are arguing for here is correct, but what 'you' are saying here is NOT correct.
Sculptor wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:46 pm You might be able to describe them is similar ways, even use exactly the same words. Yet for each of us even the words we use have individuals connotations, and relate to our unique experiences in our lives.
We can agree that an apple is red, but we can never know if my experience is like that of another person.
It is this SIMPLE, human beings will NEVER know if what one experiences as 'red', for example, is not "another's" 'blue', for example. This can NEVER be KNOWN. What can be KNOWN, however, is what is AGREED, or DISAGREED, UPON. And, for information, it is actually AGREEMENT, which makes up what is True, Right, or Correct in Life.
Sculptor wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:46 pm A child knows this and may remark that when I see red you see what I see when I see blue and verse versa,
Does EVERY child know this?

If yes, then at what age, EXACTLY, does this occur?
Sculptor wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:46 pm but since we may never share the mind of another person are agreement about a colour is actually the agreement of a word to describe that colour.
There is NO 'other mind', NOR 'a mind' of a DIFFERENT 'individual', nor 'a mind' of 'another person'. But the rest of what you write here is correct.
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 4:58 pm
Age wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 4:58 am
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:17 pm
So prove that the real color of apple is red.
LOL
LOL
LOL

Talk about MISSING the point, AGAIN.

Lol who is saying the 'real color' of an apple is 'red'?
That was you who said: "WHY NOT? I AM"
You wrote: We are not sure whether the world is real or not.

I wrote: WHY NOT? AND, I AM.

1. You STILL have NOT YET answered the CLARIFYING QUESTION I posed to you here.

2. I WAS RESPONDING to what YOUR WROTE. So, I AM SAYING, I AM SURE that 'the world' IS REAL.

3. I AM NOT SAYING the 'real color' of an apple is 'red'.

As I was saying; Talk about MISSING the point, AGAIN.
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 5:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:12 am
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
That is just a claim.
OF COURSE it IS.

It is ALSO a PROVED Fact. Therefore, it IS , a claim that can NOT be refuted by ANY one.

So, that CLAIM IS an IRREFUTABLE True, Right, Accurate, or Correct Fact.Understood?
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
Think through.
So, ONCE AGAIN, you are NOT ABLE TO clarify, further explain,NOR elaborate on your BELIEFS.

This is a good sign that you do NOT YET REALLY understand NOR know the subject which you speak of.
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
There is no direct experience of apple in human case.
LOL

Do you NOT understand the english language, NOT understand what is being asked, or just do NOT understand?

Or, are you PURPOSELY just 'trying to' DEFLECT?
I am ignoring this post since there is nothing to discuss.
But there is PLENTY to discuss. You just do NOT want to discuss BECAUSE you will end up CONTRADICTING "yoursef'", and thus be PROVED Wrong, ONCE AGAIN.

Also, you were asked three CLARIFYING QUESTIONS. So, this in itself, PROVES that there was SOME 'thing' to discuss. Which, ONCE AGAIN, PROVES that what you CLAIM here is False, Wrong, AND Incorrect, ONCE MORE.
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm When the relation of brain-apple occurs, there is an experience that we call "seeing an apple".

Apple is not "red" without a relation with a brain.
But nothing is not "whatever" without a relation with a brain. This is OBVIOUS. Did this REALLY need to be SAID?

Does ANY one here DISAGREE that 'what is' or 'what is not' is NOT in relation with a brain?
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm When the relation of brain-apple occurs, there is an experience that we call "seeing an apple".
Yes.
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm Apple is not "red" without a relation with a brain.
No. Apple just seems red.
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:46 pm The whole point about the argument about qualia is that they are unique events for each of us.
No one can have the same experiences that I have.
You might be able to describe them is similar ways, even use exactly the same words. Yet for each of us even the words we use have individuals connotations, and relate to our unique experiences in our lives.
We can agree that an apple is red, but we can never know if my experience is like that of another person. A child knows this and may remark that when I see red you see what I see when I see blue and verse versa, but since we may never share the mind of another person are agreement about a colour is actually the agreement of a word to describe that colour.
That is correct but that is another point.
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Sculptor
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:03 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:46 pm The whole point about the argument about qualia is that they are unique events for each of us.
No one can have the same experiences that I have.
You might be able to describe them is similar ways, even use exactly the same words. Yet for each of us even the words we use have individuals connotations, and relate to our unique experiences in our lives.
We can agree that an apple is red, but we can never know if my experience is like that of another person. A child knows this and may remark that when I see red you see what I see when I see blue and verse versa, but since we may never share the mind of another person are agreement about a colour is actually the agreement of a word to describe that colour.
That is correct but that is another point.
It is one that you missed (above).
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henry quirk
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by henry quirk »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:37 am The world exists, exists independent of us, and is apprehended by us as it is (*not in its entirety but as it is). We **apprehend it directly, without the aid of, or intervention of, [insert hypothetical whatsis] and without constructing a model or representation of the world somewhere in our heads.

*If you take into account perspective (where the observer stands in relation to the observed); intervening, inconstant, possible, distortions (water instead of atmosphere, for example); and the inherent limits of the observer himself; then what is seen is as it is.

**Direct realism, of course, is not just about sight. Hearing, taste, smell, touch: the entire interface of a person, as he's in the world, is the concern of the direct realist. That's why I define it as I do. Apprehension covers it all, the whole of a person's direct contact with the world.
0F87307C-7536-46D1-89AA-A9CD9E65DB9D.jpeg
0F87307C-7536-46D1-89AA-A9CD9E65DB9D.jpeg (92.7 KiB) Viewed 1433 times
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:37 am The world exists, exists independent of us, and is apprehended by us as it is (*not in its entirety but as it is). We **apprehend it directly, without the aid of, or intervention of, [insert hypothetical whatsis] and without constructing a model or representation of the world somewhere in our heads.
Do you have any argument against simulating world or Matrix?
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:20 pm *If you take into account perspective (where the observer stands in relation to the observed); intervening, inconstant, possible, distortions (water instead of atmosphere, for example); and the inherent limits of the observer himself; then what is seen is as it is.
It is not.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:20 pm **Direct realism, of course, is not just about sight. Hearing, taste, smell, touch: the entire interface of a person, as he's in the world, is the concern of the direct realist. That's why I define it as I do. Apprehension covers it all, the whole of a person's direct contact with the world.
No.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:20 pm 0F87307C-7536-46D1-89AA-A9CD9E65DB9D.jpeg
About the comments on the picture: 1) Wrong, 2) Wrong, 3) Wrong, 4) Prove that they really exist (we not living in a Matrix).
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