What is the real color of the apple?

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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:37 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:42 pm Depends on what you mean by "real".
All colour is mental phenomena, so even if you can nominate a colour you can never know if the apple appears the same to others as it does to you.
We can be sure that other animals give completely different values to colours than humans and we know that different humans have different perceptions of colour.
We laughingly call this "colour blindness" when in truth it is nothing of the kind, but the arrogance of the majority who like to think of others as deficient in some ways, yet even taken from the POV of some humans, the "normal" colour vision is also deficient as compared to some Africans who can see colours that the average Western is blind to.
But even were we call to agree about colours we could never know that our internal perception of colour was the same as any other despite agreeing in naming colour.

What science can agree about is that what is "real" about colour is the wavelength of light reflected from different objects.
But for human perception colour does not respect that and is continually making adjustments for different lighting conditions. If you have ever seen a photo of a sunset and wondered why it is just do damned RED, when on the day you took it the sky was not like that - the sad fact is that the brain deletes extreme conditions are readjusts perception.
You may also have seen photos taken in the home under normal incandescent light, which appears as a washed out yellowy mess. The camera never lies; the brain makes the adjustment, applying filters to normalise the colour balance.
OK.
OK???
Yes, it means that I agree partially with what you said. But the examples that you provide do not tell us anything about the real color of the apple.
Iwannaplato
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:45 pm Yes, it means that I agree partially with what you said. But the examples that you provide do not tell us anything about the real color of the apple.
How about a sort of informal pragmatic view. Calling (red) apples red and thinking of them as red works quite well in nearly every context in my life. So, saying the apples are really read works really well. In some contexts, certain scientific ones, for example, it would be misleading. I can then speak of it a different way. I could then say the apple elicits an experience that includes the quale redness, perhaps, when viewed by me.
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:48 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:45 pm Yes, it means that I agree partially with what you said. But the examples that you provide do not tell us anything about the real color of the apple.
How about a sort of informal pragmatic view. Calling (red) apples red and thinking of them as red works quite well in nearly every context in my life. So, saying the apples are really read works really well. In some contexts, certain scientific ones, for example, it would be misleading. I can then speak of it a different way. I could then say the apple elicits an experience that includes the quale redness, perhaps, when viewed by me.
The apple is the cause of your indirect experience.
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Sculptor
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:45 pm Yes, it means that I agree partially with what you said. But the examples that you provide do not tell us anything about the real color of the apple.
That is because there is no "real colour" since all colour is subjective.
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:07 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:45 pm Yes, it means that I agree partially with what you said. But the examples that you provide do not tell us anything about the real color of the apple.
That is because there is no "real colour" since all colour is subjective.
What if the electromagnetic waves are qualia?
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Sculptor
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:10 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:07 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:45 pm Yes, it means that I agree partially with what you said. But the examples that you provide do not tell us anything about the real color of the apple.
That is because there is no "real colour" since all colour is subjective.
What if the electromagnetic waves are qualia?
Yes, that would be the case if you had no idea what qualia are.
Whatever is the physical reality of the qualia as encoded by the brain, it would still be unique to the observer and not the same as a quale in another brain.
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:14 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:10 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:07 pm

That is because there is no "real colour" since all colour is subjective.
What if the electromagnetic waves are qualia?
Yes, that would be the case if you had no idea what qualia are.
To me, qualia are the subject of experience.
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:14 pm Whatever is the physical reality of the qualia as encoded by the brain, it would still be unique to the observer and not the same as a quale in another brain.
How do you know? If the qualia are the same in the brain of two persons then they should experience the same thing.
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Sculptor
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:24 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:14 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:10 pm
What if the electromagnetic waves are qualia?
Yes, that would be the case if you had no idea what qualia are.
To me, qualia are the subject of experience.
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:14 pm Whatever is the physical reality of the qualia as encoded by the brain, it would still be unique to the observer and not the same as a quale in another brain.
How do you know? If the qualia are the same in the brain of two persons then they should experience the same thing.
Why am I not surprised that you don't really get it?
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:37 am The world exists, exists independent of us, and is apprehended by us as it is (*not in its entirety but as it is).
How do you know that the real world exists?
Because of what the 'real' word means and refers to, EXACTLY.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm Do you have an argument against the simulating world or Matrix?
yes.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:37 am We **apprehend it directly, without the aid of, or intervention of, [insert hypothetical whatsis] and without constructing a model or representation of the world somewhere in our heads.
If the experience happens somewhere in our head then it is obvious that we don't apprehend things directly.
What does the 'the' word refer to, EXACTLY?

There are 'experiences', which exist in a CONTINUAL line, and which, it might be argued, may end within the head, but that does NOT mean that 'you' do NOT not apprehend things directly.

Are you even how you could explain that you do NOT experience NOR apprend 'things' directly?

And then explain how this relates to because SOME 'things'are experienced within the head that this then MEANS you do NOT apprehend ALL 'things' directly?
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm That is true since there is a distance between the sensory system and a place in the brain.
There is a distance between 'the tree' and 'the eyes' BUT 'the tree' IS STILL experienced, and/or apprehended, directly.
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:30 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:24 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:14 pm
Yes, that would be the case if you had no idea what qualia are.
To me, qualia are the subject of experience.
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:14 pm Whatever is the physical reality of the qualia as encoded by the brain, it would still be unique to the observer and not the same as a quale in another brain.
How do you know? If the qualia are the same in the brain of two persons then they should experience the same thing.
Why am I not surprised that you don't really get it?
Why am I not surprised that you don't really get it?
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:37 am The world exists, exists independent of us, and is apprehended by us as it is (*not in its entirety but as it is).
How do you know that the real world exists?
Because of what the 'real' word means and refers to, EXACTLY.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm Do you have an argument against the simulating world or Matrix?
yes.
What are your proofs?
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:37 am We **apprehend it directly, without the aid of, or intervention of, [insert hypothetical whatsis] and without constructing a model or representation of the world somewhere in our heads.
If the experience happens somewhere in our head then it is obvious that we don't apprehend things directly.
What does the 'the' word refer to, EXACTLY?

There are 'experiences', which exist in a CONTINUAL line, and which, it might be argued, may end within the head, but that does NOT mean that 'you' do NOT not apprehend things directly.

Are you even how you could explain that you do NOT experience NOR apprend 'things' directly?

And then explain how this relates to because SOME 'things'are experienced within the head that this then MEANS you do NOT apprehend ALL 'things' directly?
I already explained that in OP. There is a distance between the object and experience that happens in your heads and there are many things that intervene between.
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm That is true since there is a distance between the sensory system and a place in the brain.
There is a distance between 'the tree' and 'the eyes' BUT 'the tree' IS STILL experienced, and/or apprehended, directly.
NO.
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:48 am There cannot be a true reality of a real color [absolute] of an apple.
You cannot be sure.
I CAN, and AM.

There is, OBVIOUSLY, a so-called, 'true reality' AND 'real color', but what they ARE, EXACTLY, all depends.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm We are not sure whether the world is real or not.
WHY NOT?

I AM.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm I have no argument against or in favor of it.
Age
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm
How do you know that the real world exists?
Because of what the 'real' word means and refers to, EXACTLY.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm Do you have an argument against the simulating world or Matrix?
yes.
What are your proofs?
Just the ONE. That is; the REAL One.

See it would NOT matter one iota how many 'simulated worlds' NOR 'matrix's', which MIGHT exist, they ALL would HAVE TO exist in A 'REAL world'.

Or, in other words, in thee One and ONLY 'REAL world'.
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm
If the experience happens somewhere in our head then it is obvious that we don't apprehend things directly.
What does the 'the' word refer to, EXACTLY?

There are 'experiences', which exist in a CONTINUAL line, and which, it might be argued, may end within the head, but that does NOT mean that 'you' do NOT not apprehend things directly.

Are you even how you could explain that you do NOT experience NOR apprend 'things' directly?

And then explain how this relates to because SOME 'things'are experienced within the head that this then MEANS you do NOT apprehend ALL 'things' directly?
I already explained that in OP. There is a distance between the object and experience that happens in your heads and there are many things that intervene between.
So what?
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:27 pm That is true since there is a distance between the sensory system and a place in the brain.
There is a distance between 'the tree' and 'the eyes' BUT 'the tree' IS STILL experienced, and/or apprehended, directly.
NO.
What HAS TO ENTAIL, EXACTLY, for 'you' to be ABLE to experience SOME 'thing' 'directly'.
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:38 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:48 am There cannot be a true reality of a real color [absolute] of an apple.
You cannot be sure.
I CAN, and AM.

There is, OBVIOUSLY, a so-called, 'true reality' AND 'real color', but what they ARE, EXACTLY, all depends.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm We are not sure whether the world is real or not.
WHY NOT?

I AM.
bahman wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:34 pm I have no argument against or in favor of it.
So prove that the real color of apple is red.
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bahman
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Re: What is the real color of the apple?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:07 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am

Because of what the 'real' word means and refers to, EXACTLY.


yes.
What are your proofs?
Just the ONE. That is; the REAL One.

See it would NOT matter one iota how many 'simulated worlds' NOR 'matrix's', which MIGHT exist, they ALL would HAVE TO exist in A 'REAL world'.

Or, in other words, in thee One and ONLY 'REAL world'.
That is just a claim.
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am

What does the 'the' word refer to, EXACTLY?

There are 'experiences', which exist in a CONTINUAL line, and which, it might be argued, may end within the head, but that does NOT mean that 'you' do NOT not apprehend things directly.

Are you even how you could explain that you do NOT experience NOR apprend 'things' directly?

And then explain how this relates to because SOME 'things'are experienced within the head that this then MEANS you do NOT apprehend ALL 'things' directly?
I already explained that in OP. There is a distance between the object and experience that happens in your heads and there are many things that intervene between.
So what?
Think through.
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:51 am

There is a distance between 'the tree' and 'the eyes' BUT 'the tree' IS STILL experienced, and/or apprehended, directly.
NO.
What HAS TO ENTAIL, EXACTLY, for 'you' to be ABLE to experience SOME 'thing' 'directly'.
There is no direct experience of apple in human case.
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