promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:39 pm
"In another word, you are not caused to choose"
Well sure I am. So long as I'm conscious, I'm acting deliberately. Even my choice to do nothing would be deliberate.
Imma goal oriented struggler like all other organisms and am compelled to chose and act intentionally nearly every waking moment. Just how I am bro.
Sure consciousness is needed in order to make a choice. I don't mean that consciousness is not needed for making a choice but instead I mean that given a situation, that you are conscious about and have options to choose, you are not biased by any option. That is how the free will is defined.
promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:39 pm
But here's where we ain't on the same page yet and are talking about terms differently. I don't deny that there is choice, only that 'choosing' is no indication of freewill... it's just a description of that deliberate, goal oriented intentional behavior that cognizant humans exhibit.
The feeling of freewill is a side effect of the loopy wiring of the human brain. And philosophical talk about it involves two distinctly metaphysical claims; that there is a second, immaterial substance (like a 'will' directed by a 'soul', etc) interacting with the body and making it do things... and that these two substances are somehow causally compatible while existing independently of each other. Material and mind interacting. Yeah but how? How does a 'mind' make an arm move or a person start making spaghetti?
One Harris, Sam had a clever insight; even if you were a Cartesian ghost in the machine, you didn't chose to be the ghost you would be.
I add that if you did, you'd begin an infinite regress of ghosts.
I believe in a version of substance dualism, not Cartesian, in which there are two substances, mind and quale. Mind has the ability to experience quale, freely decide and cause quale. It is through exchange of quale that different minds can communicate and perform all sort of things, for example moving body. You are not one mind and a body. You are a sets of minds that communicate by quale.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:25 pm
That is the logical way of looking at things.
Looking at the sun revolving around the earth was also, once upon a time, the "logical" way to LOOK AT and SEE 'things'. BUT 'things', literally, DO CHANGE.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:25 pm
The distance between two points is either zero or nonzero. If you cannot understand this simple fact then there is nothing more to discuss with you.
You can say what you like here but the only one 'you' are FOOLING here is 'you'.
The 'distance' between TWO points could NEVER be zero BUT this in NO way infers NOR even implies that a non-zero interval means there is NOT a continuous flow.
The way you 'try to' are for your currently held BELIEF "bahman" is NOT 'logical'.
If you can NOT understand this simple Fact, then this is FURTHER PROOF of just how the human being FOOLS and TRICKS itself into BELIEVING 'things' because of previously held BELIEFS and/or ASSUMPTIONS.
In fact to even IMAGINE that there could NOT be a CONTINUOUS FLOW just SHOWS and PROVES how this one's BELIEFS are DISTORTING thee ACTUAL Truth of things here and PREVENTING and STOPPING this one from SEEING thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth here.
If the distance between two points can never be zero then you cannot have continuous motion.
Looking at the sun revolving around the earth was also, once upon a time, the "logical" way to LOOK AT and SEE 'things'. BUT 'things', literally, DO CHANGE.
You can say what you like here but the only one 'you' are FOOLING here is 'you'.
The 'distance' between TWO points could NEVER be zero BUT this in NO way infers NOR even implies that a non-zero interval means there is NOT a continuous flow.
The way you 'try to' are for your currently held BELIEF "bahman" is NOT 'logical'.
If you can NOT understand this simple Fact, then this is FURTHER PROOF of just how the human being FOOLS and TRICKS itself into BELIEVING 'things' because of previously held BELIEFS and/or ASSUMPTIONS.
In fact to even IMAGINE that there could NOT be a CONTINUOUS FLOW just SHOWS and PROVES how this one's BELIEFS are DISTORTING thee ACTUAL Truth of things here and PREVENTING and STOPPING this one from SEEING thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth here.
If the distance between two points can never be zero then you cannot have continuous motion.
WHY NOT?
That's the very definition of a discrete: The distance between two points is not zero.
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:48 pm
That's the very definition of a discrete: The distance between two points is not zero.
There are a few issues here that you are NOT YET aware of.
What are those issues?
Those issues are;
What 'time' IS, EXACTLY.
What 'space' IS, EXACTLY.
How there is NO ACTUAL 'distance'. But 'you' are way to far off from understanding this YET. And,
Your initial claim that, "There is nothing when the object is not X and nothing cannot cause Y."
There are a few issues here that you are NOT YET aware of.
What are those issues?
Those issues are;
What 'time' IS, EXACTLY.
What 'space' IS, EXACTLY.
How there is NO ACTUAL 'distance'. But 'you' are way to far off from understanding this YET. And,
Your initial claim that, "There is nothing when the object is not X and nothing cannot cause Y."
You are evading! That was you who accepted that the distance between two points is never zero. I have already defined time and space for you several times. And the last issue is not valid once you accept that the distance between two points is never zero.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:19 pm
What are those issues?
Those issues are;
What 'time' IS, EXACTLY.
What 'space' IS, EXACTLY.
How there is NO ACTUAL 'distance'. But 'you' are way to far off from understanding this YET. And,
Your initial claim that, "There is nothing when the object is not X and nothing cannot cause Y."
These are to just start with.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:19 pm
That I am right.
In regards to what, EXACTLY?
You are evading!
NO I AM NOT.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:54 pm
That was you who accepted that the distance between two points is never zero.
So what?
You have, ONCE AGAIN, completely and utterly MISSED what has been taking place here.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:54 pm
I have already defined time and space for you several times.
And, ONCE AGAIN, those definitions do NOT work, as they do NOT 'fit in' with what is ACTUALLY and IRREFUTABLY True.
YOUR definitions are NOT the one and ONLY definitions, NOT the final definitions, NOR the Right and Correct ones. Is this UNDERSTOOD by you?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:54 pm
And the last issue is not valid once you accept that the distance between two points is never zero.
EXPLAIN how there is, or even could be, supposedly, absolutely NOTHING when object X changes into object Y?
What 'time' IS, EXACTLY.
What 'space' IS, EXACTLY.
How there is NO ACTUAL 'distance'. But 'you' are way to far off from understanding this YET. And,
Your initial claim that, "There is nothing when the object is not X and nothing cannot cause Y."
EXPLAIN how there is, or even could be, supposedly, absolutely NOTHING when object X changes into object Y?
If the distance between two points never is zero then what do you have between these points? Obviously nothing.
Explain how during the change of object X, 'apple seed' or 'ripe apple', into object Y, 'rotten apple', there is, laughably, obviously nothing.
You already accepted that the distance between two points is never zero, This means that there is nothing between two points as I elaborated. Like it or not.
Tell me what were my definitions and what are yours.
If the distance between two points never is zero then what do you have between these points? Obviously nothing.
Explain how during the change of object X, 'apple seed' or 'ripe apple', into object Y, 'rotten apple', there is, laughably, obviously nothing.
You already accepted that the distance between two points is never zero, This means that there is nothing between two points as I elaborated. Like it or not.
LOL
Your INABILITY to explain what I have asked for beer is PROVING True that your OWN CLAIM is False and Wrong.
Just because there is a perceived distance of more than zero, then this does NOT mean there is nothing. In fact this INFERS there IS ACTUALLY some thing.
And, just because you BELIEVE, UNDOUBTEDLY, that there is nothing, this ALSO does NOT mean there is nothing.
Also, the Fact that there is some thing PROVES, IRREFUTABLY, that your claim is False and Wrong.
Explain how during the change of object X, 'apple seed' or 'ripe apple', into object Y, 'rotten apple', there is, laughably, obviously nothing.
You already accepted that the distance between two points is never zero, This means that there is nothing between two points as I elaborated. Like it or not.
LOL
Your INABILITY to explain what I have asked for beer is PROVING True that your OWN CLAIM is False and Wrong.
Just because there is a perceived distance of more than zero, then this does NOT mean there is nothing. In fact this INFERS there IS ACTUALLY some thing.
And, just because you BELIEVE, UNDOUBTEDLY, that there is nothing, this ALSO does NOT mean there is nothing.
Also, the Fact that there is some thing PROVES, IRREFUTABLY, that your claim is False and Wrong.
Have you ever watched a movie? The frames come discretely but the movie seems continuous!
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 pm
You already accepted that the distance between two points is never zero, This means that there is nothing between two points as I elaborated. Like it or not.
LOL
Your INABILITY to explain what I have asked for beer is PROVING True that your OWN CLAIM is False and Wrong.
Just because there is a perceived distance of more than zero, then this does NOT mean there is nothing. In fact this INFERS there IS ACTUALLY some thing.
And, just because you BELIEVE, UNDOUBTEDLY, that there is nothing, this ALSO does NOT mean there is nothing.
Also, the Fact that there is some thing PROVES, IRREFUTABLY, that your claim is False and Wrong.
Have you ever watched a movie? The frames come discretely but the movie seems continuous!
A movie is, literally, NOT REAL Life.
Have you ever LOOKED AT REAL Life? There are NO discrete frames. This is because Life IS continuous.
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 pm
You already accepted that the distance between two points is never zero, This means that there is nothing between two points as I elaborated. Like it or not.
LOL
Your INABILITY to explain what I have asked for beer is PROVING True that your OWN CLAIM is False and Wrong.
Just because there is a perceived distance of more than zero, then this does NOT mean there is nothing. In fact this INFERS there IS ACTUALLY some thing.
And, just because you BELIEVE, UNDOUBTEDLY, that there is nothing, this ALSO does NOT mean there is nothing.
Also, the Fact that there is some thing PROVES, IRREFUTABLY, that your claim is False and Wrong.
Have you ever watched a movie? The frames come discretely but the movie seems continuous!
Have you ever watched an apple seed grow into an apple tree, produce apples, which ripen, and then decay? There are NO frames that come discretely. It all happens in ONE continuous motion.
Also, the frames that come so-called discretely in a movie are ACTUALLY joined together as ONE, continuous.
