Simone Weil on Atheism

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bahman
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by bahman »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:54 pm Simone weil was an atheist who died a Christian mystic yet writes about atheism. In life people seem to battle to the death over atheism vs religion. What can be said that all those experts in belief or denial haven't already argued over?
"The errors of our time come from Christianity without the supernatural. Secularization is the cause—and primarily humanism.

Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith: in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be atheistic with the part of myself which is not made for God. Among those men in whom the supernatural part has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong."

Excerpted from Simone Weil‘s Gravity and Grace. First French edition 1947. Translated by Emma Crawford. English language edition 1963. Routledge and Kegan Paul, London.
How can seekers of truth understand this in a world caught up in the struggle between blind belief and blind denial?
You can go nowhere without a belief. You cannot find the truth without questioning your belief.
Nick_A
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by Nick_A »

bahman wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:38 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:54 pm Simone weil was an atheist who died a Christian mystic yet writes about atheism. In life people seem to battle to the death over atheism vs religion. What can be said that all those experts in belief or denial haven't already argued over?
"The errors of our time come from Christianity without the supernatural. Secularization is the cause—and primarily humanism.

Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith: in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be atheistic with the part of myself which is not made for God. Among those men in whom the supernatural part has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong."

Excerpted from Simone Weil‘s Gravity and Grace. First French edition 1947. Translated by Emma Crawford. English language edition 1963. Routledge and Kegan Paul, London.
How can seekers of truth understand this in a world caught up in the struggle between blind belief and blind denial?
You can go nowhere without a belief. You cannot find the truth without questioning your belief.
True, but most often an atheist questions with an attitude of denial. A person can also question with impartiality and finally move into the ascent of conscious understanding. Consider Diotima's ladder of love:

https://www.thoughtco.com/platos-ladder-of-love-2670661

Diotima maps out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.

A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.

All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.
Beautiful souls.

Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.
Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.

The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)

Beauty itself – that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as "an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades." It is the very essence of beauty, "subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness." And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.

Diotima tells Socrates that if he ever reached the highest rung on the ladder and contemplated the Form of Beauty, he would never again be seduced by the physical attractions of beautiful youths. Nothing could make life more worth living than enjoying this sort of vision. Because the Form of Beauty is perfect, it will inspire perfect virtue in those who contemplate it.
If a person lives in the negative emotion of denial, they cannot appreciate reality as anything more than sensual experience
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bahman
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:24 am
bahman wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:38 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:54 pm Simone weil was an atheist who died a Christian mystic yet writes about atheism. In life people seem to battle to the death over atheism vs religion. What can be said that all those experts in belief or denial haven't already argued over?



How can seekers of truth understand this in a world caught up in the struggle between blind belief and blind denial?
You can go nowhere without a belief. You cannot find the truth without questioning your belief.
True, but most often an atheist questions with an attitude of denial. A person can also question with impartiality and finally move into the ascent of conscious understanding. Consider Diotima's ladder of love:

https://www.thoughtco.com/platos-ladder-of-love-2670661

Diotima maps out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.

A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.

All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.
Beautiful souls.

Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.
Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.

The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)

Beauty itself – that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as "an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades." It is the very essence of beauty, "subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness." And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.

Diotima tells Socrates that if he ever reached the highest rung on the ladder and contemplated the Form of Beauty, he would never again be seduced by the physical attractions of beautiful youths. Nothing could make life more worth living than enjoying this sort of vision. Because the Form of Beauty is perfect, it will inspire perfect virtue in those who contemplate it.
If a person lives in the negative emotion of denial, they cannot appreciate reality as anything more than sensual experience
The reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg
Nick_A
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

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Simone Weil has observed: "There are two atheisms of which one is a purification of the notion of God."
- William Robert Miller (ed.), The New Christianity (New York: Delacorte Press 1967) p 267; in Paul Schilling,
God in an age of atheism (Abingdon: Nashville 1969) p 17
The hard part is finding atheists not caught up in emotional denial but are capable of impartial questioning.
Dubious
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by Dubious »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:42 am
Simone Weil has observed: "There are two atheisms of which one is a purification of the notion of God."
- William Robert Miller (ed.), The New Christianity (New York: Delacorte Press 1967) p 267; in Paul Schilling,
God in an age of atheism (Abingdon: Nashville 1969) p 17
The hard part is finding atheists not caught up in emotional denial but are capable of impartial questioning.
No amount of impartial reasoning or questioning will ever dent a bona fide god believer. If there's one thing certified over and over again it's that. It's far more probable for an atheist to convert to some form of theism than the other way around.
popeye1945
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by popeye1945 »

"Would you like to swing on a star, carry moonbeams home in a jar, and be better off than you are, or would you rather be a mule?" Walt Disney
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by RCSaunders »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:37 pm Yes, skepticism is an attitude of mind that becomes corrupted by negative emotions, ...
"Skepticism," is an epithet used by those who allow their feelings and irrational emotions, influenced by sentiment without reason or evidence, to determine their beliefs. It is used by them to repudiate anyone who does not suffer from the same gullibility and ignorant credulity as they do. True skepticism is not, "doubt," but certainty that anything not based on verifiable evidence and non-contradictory reason cannot be known to be true. A true skeptic refuses to believe what cannot be true, because what is true is so important to him he cannot allow anything into his mind that could corrupt his clear and correct reasoning.

There is a wrong kind of skepticism called cynicism. It is the kind of skepticism all religious and most ideologists, such as you, are guilty of. It is doubting all real evidence and reason in order to hold on to one's irrational beliefs.
Nick_A
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by Nick_A »

Could either RC or Popeye discuss the upcoming question taking lace on Zoom for the American Weil Society colloquy? Five grad student are invited to partake in this essential question from the Weilian perspective. No grades involved but inviting reason free from negativity and denial. It could never happen here but it is nice that some are open to this necessary challenge to open the mind: to be free to contemplate truth at the expense of negative egoistic justifications.
"Rethinking Theology" is a group of young scholars working on
the role theology plays and can play in the crises and aporias
of the twenty-first century asking what ultimately matters. In
this panel each of the five members of "Rethinking Theology"
will give a brief summary of how their investigation into the
present state and future possibilities of theology can draw on
Simone Weil. The panel is envisaged as a virtual roundtable
which will include issues like: how Weil’s concept of
decreation speaks to the growing confluence of climate
denialism and Christian white nationalism; how Weil’s
analysis of force illuminates contemporary research in
sociology and political science; Weil’s understanding of
beauty and prayer and their relationship to negative
aesthetic circumstances and feelings; Weil’s reception and
re-application of biblical imaginaries against the backdrop of
fundamentalist biblicism; and eusymbiotic practices in times
of the pandemic and the loss of solidarity. In striving for a
politically sensitive theology, "Rethinking Theology" is
committed to transcending the political thinker/religious
thinker divide in Weil scholarship - not only to do justice to
Weil, but also heading for a theology that is accountable to
the political implications it always bears.
Gary Childress
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by Gary Childress »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:23 pm
"The poison of skepticism becomes, like alcoholism, tuberculosis, and some other diseases, much more virulent in a hitherto virgin soil." Simone Weil.
Skepticism when clothed with negative emotions like denial prevents opening to the vertical inner path Plato described. Finding the vertical inner path leading to meaning needs inwardly turning to the light rather than continually being caught up in shadows. But when a person is caught up in the negativity of skepticism, our higher parts remain closed to the supernatural experience from intuition and noesis. The idea is considered laughable and worthy of condemnation to skeptics lacking experience as often seen on forums dominated by secularism
I think it is healthy to be skeptical toward the unknown if a person is guided by goodwill. In the end, it all seems to come down to goodwill, though. God doesn't seem to want everyone to believe in him/her/it. Otherwise, it seems to me that God could easily solve the problem of unbelief by walking and talking among us. I'd like to believe in God, however, to be honest, it's pretty difficult to. I often feel rather transparent and fake worshiping a being whom I was never brought up as a child to worship. If that disqualifies me from heaven or whatever the grand prize is, then I don't know why God would be so unfair as to do that to people. If there is a God, then I think God would be more forgiving and not be very worried about being worshiped or not. After all, what can mortals do by worshiping God that God actually needs? It seems to me that as long as a person isn't harming other people, then that should count for something.
reasonvemotion
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

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Nick A wrote:
Until a person has been born from above,........
What does this highfalutin condition mean?
popeye1945
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

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Religion should not be a proper subject for philosophy just as it is not a legitimate subject for science. The world of fantasy can make many and any claim if it is not required to produce evidence to its credibility.
Nick_A
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:41 am Religion should not be a proper subject for philosophy just as it is not a legitimate subject for science. The world of fantasy can make many and any claim if it is not required to produce evidence to its credibility.
Is Plato or Plotinus proper subjects for philosophy? Plato refers to the universal Good and Plotinus refers to the ONE. Neither can be proven. That is GOD. Seeking to understand and follow the truth of GOD is religion. What is not proper about it?
popeye1945
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by popeye1945 »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:45 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:41 am Religion should not be a proper subject for philosophy just as it is not a legitimate subject for science. The world of fantasy can make many and any claim if it is not required to produce evidence to its credibility.
Is Plato or Plotinus proper subjects for philosophy? Plato refers to the universal Good and Plotinus refers to the ONE. Neither can be proven. That is GOD. Seeking to understand and follow the truth of GOD is religion. What is not proper about it?
Plato was a mystic, it was not his mysticism that proved valuable. We've discussed this before.
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:45 am

Is Plato or Plotinus proper subjects for philosophy? Plato refers to the universal Good and Plotinus refers to the ONE. Neither can be proven. That is GOD. Seeking to understand and follow the truth of GOD is religion. What is not proper about it?
Reality is not conceptual. The mind is conceptual.


Everything is as it is.

How or what or when or who or why or where it is, that is imagination...

...real imagination.

Imagination is solid thought.

Image
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Dontaskme
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Re: Simone Weil on Atheism

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:54 pm Simone weil was an atheist who died a Christian mystic yet writes about atheism. In life people seem to battle to the death over atheism vs religion. What can be said that all those experts in belief or denial haven't already argued over?


How can seekers of truth understand this in a world caught up in the struggle between blind belief and blind denial?

As these words are read, no one will know if these words come from Nick_A

In fact, what did I think Nick_A / Simone weil to be? An image, a collection of concepts created by the mind? What I thought Nick_A to be, "another person", is nothing more than an image, as I am too nothing more than an image of body, thoughts and feelings.

Think on these things. Imagination is solid thought. Soiled thought. Dirt upon the pristine mirror.

No thing ever happened in a dream.

Pain is real... but where is the feeler...the feeler is the pain.

Where is the pain?

That's all folks...no further enquiry necessary.
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