compatibilism

[iambiguous]

From ILP:

Any determinist knows that there is only one possible world. My writing this could not be otherwise. You are adding nothing to what we already know, and sadly you are preventing new knowledge from coming to light due to your constant interference.

Nature to iambiguous:

I compel you to respond!


Okay, sure, if the laws of nature insist...

1] there is only one possible world
2] our posting what we do here could never be otherwise

Therefore, anything I add to the exchange I am never able not to add. And if it prevents new knowledge that would rid the world of things that peacegirl is compelled to call EVIL, well, that too is but an inherent, necessary component of the only possible world.



Yo, BigMike! Meet peacegirl. A fellow "free will determinist".



Note to others at PN:

Please pass this on to BigMike. Nature has compelled him to put me in the "penalty box".


Finally, in a free will world, pick one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders

[iambiguous]

A second form of compatibilism argues that it is a confusion to oppose free will and causation. The opposite of caused is uncaused; the opposite of free is constrained. Events are caused or uncaused, actions are free or constrained. So the opposite of a free action is not a caused event but a constrained action. Actions that are not constrained are free. The issue of causation is irrelevant.

Even the free-willers admit that they are "influenced but not determined" by internal and external states and events.

You can't escape causation in some sense.

Indeed, and "somehow" presuming a measure of free will in the is/ought world, I suggest that our own moral and political value judgments are the existential manifestation/embodiment of the arguments I make in these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

This and the part where there are so many aspects of our lives [past, present and future] that we can never either fully grasp or fully control: https://youtu.be/mTDs0lvFuMc

Of course, most don't/won't think this part through. For obvious reasons, right? There are so many mind-boggling interactions that unfold in our lives that could at any time push us in who knows what new directions.

Better to anchor our Self to something more solid. God or No God.

That's why freedom and free will really comes down to constrained and unconstrained actions.

As for the distinction between caused and constrained, in a wholly determined universe where the human brain itself is just along for the "only possible reality" ride, making that distinction in and of itself is just another domino toppling over on cue re...nature?

[Belinda]

The soul's choices and decisions would have to be uncaused. Otherwise you have just added a determined soul to the determined brain and not gained anything except more complexity.

That's right if the soul is a free will. I dislike your use of the word ' soul' but its nice that you understand the implication of absolute free will.

There are three choices. 1. Souls choose by guesswork .

2. Souls are directly caused to choose by God.

3. There is no such thing as free will.

[promethean75]

"Yo, BigMike! Meet peacegirl. A fellow "free will determinist"

i think i already told BigMike about peacegirl over at ILP. i wuz tryna hook em up. wuzzint the book PG is always hollerin about written by her old man or something?

anyway imagine if they met, hit it off, and got married. it would be the most determined wedding in history.

[attofishpi]

The soul's choices and decisions would have to be uncaused. Otherwise you have just added a determined soul to the determined brain and not gained anything except more complexity.

That's right if the soul is a free will. I dislike your use of the word ' soul' but its nice that you understand the implication of absolute free will.

There are three choices.
1. Souls choose by guesswork .

2. Souls are directly caused to choose by God.

3. There is no such thing as free will.

More likely ALL of the below:

1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

2. Conscious minds CAN have decisions influenced even forced by God.

3. Conscious minds have free will within a determined universe, unless point 2 occurs.

[BigMike]

1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

I think that "qualia inputs" are the firing of neurons that were first set off by hormones in the bloodstream or by the senses in the afferent peripheral nervous system. This starts a chain reaction in which one neuron sends a signal to the next neuron in a one-way flow, from the dendrites to the axon terminals.

The signal thus pushes forward at lightning speed, possibly with feedback loops, until it either fizzles out, causes a muscle to contract, or a gland to release a chemical (hormone). It doesn't stop anywhere to "reflect upon ones previously acquired knowledge", because that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network, thanks to how we remember and learn.

[attofishpi]

1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

I think that "qualia inputs" are the firing of neurons that were first set off by hormones in the bloodstream or by the senses in the afferent peripheral nervous system. This starts a chain reaction in which one neuron sends a signal to the next neuron in a one-way flow, from the dendrites to the axon terminals.

The signal thus pushes forward at lightning speed, possibly with feedback loops, until it either fizzles out, causes a muscle to contract, or a gland to release a chemical (hormone). It doesn't stop anywhere to "reflect upon ones previously acquired knowledge", because that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network, thanks to how we remember and learn.

Oh shit captain, looks like we got us a genius on board this ship of fools.

"it fizzles out" .. "it doesn't stop anywhere to.." --->> BECAUSE, "that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network."

Are you serious? On the one hand you want qualia input to 'fizzle out" ...and on the other hand you still expect that it be stored into THAT knowledge bank of the neural network.

When I stated "(analysis) ...reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge" I was talking about that thing you mentioned MEMORY. (something you suggested from an input just 'fizzles out' - doesn't get stored).

[BigMike]

1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

I think that "qualia inputs" are the firing of neurons that were first set off by hormones in the bloodstream or by the senses in the afferent peripheral nervous system. This starts a chain reaction in which one neuron sends a signal to the next neuron in a one-way flow, from the dendrites to the axon terminals.

The signal thus pushes forward at lightning speed, possibly with feedback loops, until it either fizzles out, causes a muscle to contract, or a gland to release a chemical (hormone). It doesn't stop anywhere to "reflect upon ones previously acquired knowledge", because that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network, thanks to how we remember and learn.

Oh shit captain, looks like we got us a genius on board this ship of fools.

"it fizzles out" .. "it doesn't stop anywhere to.." --->> BECAUSE, "that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network."

Are you serious? On the one hand you want qualia input to 'fizzle out" ...and on the other hand you still expect that it be stored into THAT knowledge bank of the neural network.

When I stated "(analysis) ...reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge" I was talking about that thing you mentioned MEMORY. (something you suggested from an input just 'fizzles out' - doesn't get stored).

The neuron cell body and the axon meet at the axon hillock, where there are a lot of voltage-gated Na+ channels. These channels become active when a critical membrane potential, called the threshold potential of about 10-15 mV (millivolts) from the resting state, is reached. Unless the threshold potential is reached, the neuron will not fire; the signal just fizzles out.

[phyllo]

1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

I think that "qualia inputs" are the firing of neurons that were first set off by hormones in the bloodstream or by the senses in the afferent peripheral nervous system. This starts a chain reaction in which one neuron sends a signal to the next neuron in a one-way flow, from the dendrites to the axon terminals.

The signal thus pushes forward at lightning speed, possibly with feedback loops, until it either fizzles out, causes a muscle to contract, or a gland to release a chemical (hormone). It doesn't stop anywhere to "reflect upon ones previously acquired knowledge", because that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network, thanks to how we remember and learn.

Wait, are you saying that you are so determined that you don't consciously reflect or think?

[BigMike]

1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

I think that "qualia inputs" are the firing of neurons that were first set off by hormones in the bloodstream or by the senses in the afferent peripheral nervous system. This starts a chain reaction in which one neuron sends a signal to the next neuron in a one-way flow, from the dendrites to the axon terminals.

The signal thus pushes forward at lightning speed, possibly with feedback loops, until it either fizzles out, causes a muscle to contract, or a gland to release a chemical (hormone). It doesn't stop anywhere to "reflect upon ones previously acquired knowledge", because that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network, thanks to how we remember and learn.

Wait, are you saying that you are so determined that you don't consciously reflect or think?

Indeed, my brain is responsible for all of my thinking.

[phyllo]

I think that "qualia inputs" are the firing of neurons that were first set off by hormones in the bloodstream or by the senses in the afferent peripheral nervous system. This starts a chain reaction in which one neuron sends a signal to the next neuron in a one-way flow, from the dendrites to the axon terminals.

The signal thus pushes forward at lightning speed, possibly with feedback loops, until it either fizzles out, causes a muscle to contract, or a gland to release a chemical (hormone). It doesn't stop anywhere to "reflect upon ones previously acquired knowledge", because that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network, thanks to how we remember and learn.

Wait, are you saying that you are so determined that you don't consciously reflect or think?

Indeed, my brain is responsible for all of my thinking.

That's not a clear answer to what I asked. What does "indeed" mean here? Yes or no followed by a reasoning behind it would be appropriate.

Do you consciously reflect? Do you consciously think?

[BigMike]

Wait, are you saying that you are so determined that you don't consciously reflect or think?

Indeed, my brain is responsible for all of my thinking.

That's not a clear answer to what I asked. What does "indeed" mean here? Yes or no followed by a reasoning behind it would be appropriate.

Do you consciously reflect? Do you consciously think?

Define what you mean by "you".

[phyllo]

Indeed, my brain is responsible for all of my thinking.

That's not a clear answer to what I asked. What does "indeed" mean here? Yes or no followed by a reasoning behind it would be appropriate.

Do you consciously reflect? Do you consciously think?

Define what you mean by "you".

As soon as somebody(or some animal) picks a fairly stable pattern out of the background, then there is an entity which is 'you' or a cat or a tree or a car, etc.

It has properties and does actions. If it did not have these, then it would not be a "fairly stable pattern".

[BigMike]

That's not a clear answer to what I asked. What does "indeed" mean here? Yes or no followed by a reasoning behind it would be appropriate.

Do you consciously reflect? Do you consciously think?

Define what you mean by "you".

As soon as somebody(or some animal) picks a fairly stable pattern out of the background, then there is an entity which is 'you' or a cat or a tree or a car, etc.

It has properties and does actions. If it did not have these, then it would not be a "fairly stable pattern".

That seems to fit with my concept of a physical body, in which case my brain, being part of my body, does the reflecting and thinking. What are you getting at here?

[Advocate]

[quote=BigMike post_id=610230 time=1669210177 user_id=22744]
[quote=phyllo post_id=610229 time=1669209337 user_id=9495]
[quote=BigMike post_id=610228 time=1669208391 user_id=22744]


Define what you mean by "you".
[/quote]As soon as somebody(or some animal) picks a fairly stable pattern out of the background, then there is an entity which is 'you' or a cat or a tree or a car, etc.

It has properties and does actions. If it did not have these, then it would not be a "fairly stable pattern".
[/quote]

That seems to fit with my concept of a physical body, in which case my brain, being part of my body, does the reflecting and thinking. What are you getting at here?
[/quote]

A thing is a pattern in a mind; a set of attributes and boundary conditions by which it is differentiated from all other things according to purpose. Outside a mind is only undifferentiated stuff.

The stability of the pattern is relevant to its purpose. A bare change from living to dead might be all but indistinguishable and have extraordinary consequences while a black hole can suck up planets and no one cares.