compatibilism

So what's really going on?

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Belinda
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:32 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:49 am
BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:41 am

However, it depends on your definition of "truly free man". If you lack free will, you cannot choose your actions.
Then who or what is doing the choosing?
God.
Are you joking?

God (or nature if you prefer) necessarily is what it is. Choosing is an activity limited to creatures who cannot exit space time as long as they live.
bobmax
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Re: compatibilism

Post by bobmax »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:34 pm I'd rather not have to specify "absolute". However if you read these pages long enough you will find many contributors think Free Will is synonymous with the act of choosing.
Yes, but it's not just choosing, thinking is also often considered a free will activity.
That is to be able to think freely what you want.

But there is an underlying misunderstanding here about the freedom of the will.

Because by freedom we mean being able to take advantage of every possibility, even the most absurd.
While we do not realize that true freedom is, and only is, the expression of ourselves.

What we really are, not what we believe we are.

So freedom is directly connected with what I owe because this I am.
I choose what I owe because this I am.

And so we come to being.
"I am who I am"
bobmax
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Re: compatibilism

Post by bobmax »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:38 pm
bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:32 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:49 am
Then who or what is doing the choosing?
God.
Are you joking?

God (or nature if you prefer) necessarily is what it is. Choosing is an activity limited to creatures who cannot exit space time as long as they live.
Are you trying to limit God?

If you don't like this term, let's call it Chaos.

Don't you feel it bubbling everywhere, even inside you?
Who are you but the daughter of Chaos?
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:38 pm
bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:32 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:49 am
Then who or what is doing the choosing?
God.
Are you joking?

God (or nature if you prefer) necessarily is what it is. Choosing is an activity limited to creatures who cannot exit space time as long as they live.
God doesn't exist!!!! Wake up, folks!
bobmax
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Re: compatibilism

Post by bobmax »

BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:37 pm God doesn't exist!!!! Wake up, folks!
Certainly.
God does not exist because God is.
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:42 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:37 pm God doesn't exist!!!! Wake up, folks!
Certainly.
God does not exist because God is.
I was unaware that this forum was intended for comedians.
bobmax
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Re: compatibilism

Post by bobmax »

BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:47 pm
bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:42 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:37 pm God doesn't exist!!!! Wake up, folks!
Certainly.
God does not exist because God is.
I was unaware that this forum was intended for comedians.
Don't you see the profound difference between existing and being?

Being does not exist, being is.

And since what does not exist is nothing...
Being = Nothing

Nothing means only the non-existent.

Grab this, and then you can maybe start doing philosophy.
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:04 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:47 pm
bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:42 pm

Certainly.
God does not exist because God is.
I was unaware that this forum was intended for comedians.
Don't you see the profound difference between existing and being?

Being does not exist, being is.

And since what does not exist is nothing...
Being = Nothing

Nothing means only the non-existent.

Grab this, and then you can maybe start doing philosophy.
Invest time and resources in your education.
bobmax
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:38 am

Re: compatibilism

Post by bobmax »

BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:10 pm Invest time and resources in your education.
To learn how to be a comedian?
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phyllo
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Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:03 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:02 am Inanimate objects don't choose anything.
Sunflowers are not inanimate! But they don't reason because reasoning needs the ability to abstract general ideas from particulars, and this in turn needs symbolic language.

Animals that use tools (e.g.some apes , and crows) can generalise the concept of tools from bits of wood and a problem to be solved. However there's a huge difference of degree between what these intelligent animals do and what Einstein did.
I'm not sure what kind of reasoning ability plants have. Does anyone really know?

Do they know how much reasoning ability the various animals have?

In the past, it was said that animals don't reason at all. But that has changed.
Belinda
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:07 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:34 pm I'd rather not have to specify "absolute". However if you read these pages long enough you will find many contributors think Free Will is synonymous with the act of choosing.
Yes, but it's not just choosing, thinking is also often considered a free will activity.
That is to be able to think freely what you want.

But there is an underlying misunderstanding here about the freedom of the will.

Because by freedom we mean being able to take advantage of every possibility, even the most absurd.
While we do not realize that true freedom is, and only is, the expression of ourselves.

What we really are, not what we believe we are.

So freedom is directly connected with what I owe because this I am.
I choose what I owe because this I am.

And so we come to being.
"I am who I am"
True freedom cannot be "the expression of ourselves" because the very idea of self limits us to self and not-self, so we cannot be not-self. Not even the most empathetic person can be not-self. When you know the most you can know about about natural necessity, then you will be as free as you can be. Absolute freedom is impossible.
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:25 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:10 pm Invest time and resources in your education.
To learn how to be a comedian?
Naw... Study something you are weak in, such as science or math.
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iambiguous
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Re: compatibilism

Post by iambiguous »

BigMike wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:57 am
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:27 am
Let's ask the scientists.
When my brain compels me to? And I suspect that the scientific community has not reached a definitive consensus on the free will/determinism conundrum...antinomy?
They have. You just don't get it, do you?
Click.

They have not. After all, if they had, it would be explosive news. There would be documentaries on Nova and the Science Channel and the BBC.

And [as usual] you ask me if I get it as an advocate of free will would. In other words, you get it, I have the option to get it too but I don't.
Why?
BigMike wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:57 amPerhaps because you lack the necessary intellectual capacity? Due to physical limitations, of course.
Perhaps. After all, if there is one thing we know for sure, nature doesn't create all that many Newtons and Einsteins and Hawkings. Though it does seem to mass-produce any number of arrogant, authroitarian "my way or the highway" objectivists.

Not to mention pinheads. :shock:
On the other hand, even if one day we turn on the news and that is at the top of the newscast, how exactly would we go about demonstrating that this too is not just another inherent manifestation of the only possible reality?
BigMike wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:57 amWhy would you wish to demonstrate that this too is "just another inherent manifestation of the only possible reality?" If science demonstrates that everything adheres to the laws of physics and, consequently, there is only one "possible reality" how often do you wish to reiterate that this, too, is "just another inherent manifestation of the only possible reality"? Just accept the facts, and move on.
Right, like pinning this down one way or the other isn't crucial when it comes to, say, assigning moral responsibility to the behaviors we choose. Just accept the arguments and the facts of the moral objectivists among us and, if you either can or cannot opt freely to do so, move on.
Ask you to confirm it?
BigMike wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:57 amConfirm what? Verify what? What science has already proven? Do you need someone to confirm the confirmation of science? Or confirmation of confirmation of confirmation? Stop your foolishness!
So, is bahman a character that you play here or are you a character that he plays? 8)

Next up: pinning down "foolishness" metaphysically. :wink:
Belinda
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:03 pm
bobmax wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:25 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:10 pm Invest time and resources in your education.
To learn how to be a comedian?
Naw... Study something you are weak in, such as science or math.
Big Mike, God (or nature if you prefer )does not exist like this or that exists. God is not a very powerful being among other beings, but is being itself. If it were not for being itself nothing would exist. Being implies relativity.
bobmax
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:38 am

Re: compatibilism

Post by bobmax »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:00 pm True freedom cannot be "the expression of ourselves" because the very idea of self limits us to self and not-self, so we cannot be not-self.
You can be it.
When compassion takes you, you are gone. It is not a question of empathy, but of compassion.

And it is not you who has compassion but compassion that possesses you, totally.
Therefore you cannot want to have compassion, it is not up to you, only begotten daughter.
But it depends on the Father (or the Mother if you prefer), as long as you are a daughter.

Until you become One again
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