compatibilism

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attofishpi
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:14 am
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:06 am

My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain," then the "conscious mind" is a physical thing that is subject to the same physical laws as everything else. That's why it's not free. So there is no free will, and compatibilism is a bunch of nonsense.
The conscious mind certainly interacts with the brain, and exists as part of it, however it does not then follow that there is no free will.

So you agree that the mind exists, to the extent of understanding that we have a 'minds eye'?
You have to read my response one more time. I said "My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain", then..." You're the one who says they interact, not me. I'm saying they can't interact.
Let me just get this straight. Do you not believe you have a conscious mind, indeed a 'minds eye' that can picture for example the image of an apple?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:10 am
Nobody denies that the mind "interacts with" the brain, in the sense that the two work together in some way we don't quite grasp.
I do. I don't think the mind interacts with the brain. It's impossible. The mind, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, is only aware what the brain "did" after the fact, which has nothing to do with what the brain does or doesn't do.
Actually, Mike, you just slipped again.

You say the mind is "aware...after the fact." This makes the mind a separate entity from the brain, since they aren't performing the same operation at precisely the same moment, according to your account. But it makes mind its own thing. It makes mind out to be real and distinct from brain.

Moreover, according to your explanation, the brain and mind DO interact, though in a chronological way, with the mind catching up to the brain after the brain has instigated something, presumably.

But the account doesn't even make sense, really. The brain cannot know what external circumstances should motivate a response, because brain is a lump of meat. It doesn't "know" anything, without a mind. So it can neither instigate an action, nor inform the mind after-the-fact of what it has done.

"Mind" is the only conscious part. "Brain" refers only to the materials. And materials cannot "know" or "motivate" or "make aware" anything.

So you should have to put it this way: there is no mind. There is just brain. And nothing is ever "aware." That would, at least, be consistent with your account of things.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:40 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:14 am

The conscious mind certainly interacts with the brain, and exists as part of it, however it does not then follow that there is no free will.

So you agree that the mind exists, to the extent of understanding that we have a 'minds eye'?
You have to read my response one more time. I said "My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain", then..." You're the one who says they interact, not me. I'm saying they can't interact.
Let me just get this straight. Do you not believe you have a conscious mind, indeed a 'minds eye' that can picture for example the image of an apple?
Yes, I think I have a "mind's eye," which means I can tell when the rods and cones in the retinas of my eyes are stimulated by light in a way that makes my brain recognize the patterns of an object we call "an apple." But it's not my mind that tells my brain that that pattern of excited neurons looks like an apple. My brain recognizes the apple regardless of my consciousness being aware of it or not. In actuality, my brain reveals to my consciousness only a tiny infinitesimal fraction, a trivial superficial portion, of what it is doing. The brain charges ahead relentlessly, irrespective of what the consciousness is or is not aware of. It never stops so that it can wait for the approval, opinion, or advice of the consciousness, which is impossible anyway.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:57 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:40 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 am
You have to read my response one more time. I said "My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain", then..." You're the one who says they interact, not me. I'm saying they can't interact.
Let me just get this straight. Do you not believe you have a conscious mind, indeed a 'minds eye' that can picture for example the image of an apple?
Yes, I think I have a "mind's eye," which means I can tell when the rods and cones in the retinas of my eyes are stimulated by light in a way that makes my brain recognize the patterns of an object we call "an apple." But it's not my mind that tells my brain that that pattern of excited neurons looks like an apple. My brain recognizes the apple regardless of my consciousness being aware of it or not. In actuality, my brain reveals to my consciousness only a tiny infinitesimal fraction, a trivial superficial portion, of what it is doing. The brain charges ahead relentlessly, irrespective of what the consciousness is or is not aware of. It never stops so that it can wait for the approval, opinion, or advice of the consciousness, which is impossible anyway.
So if I ask you to think of an image of an orange, does that image appear in your mind's eye?

Of course, for that image to appear in your mind's eye means an interaction has taken place where the conscious part of the brain causes the brain function to retrieve the information required for the image to appear (within the mind's eye)...agreed?
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:11 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:57 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:40 pm

Let me just get this straight. Do you not believe you have a conscious mind, indeed a 'minds eye' that can picture for example the image of an apple?
Yes, I think I have a "mind's eye," which means I can tell when the rods and cones in the retinas of my eyes are stimulated by light in a way that makes my brain recognize the patterns of an object we call "an apple." But it's not my mind that tells my brain that that pattern of excited neurons looks like an apple. My brain recognizes the apple regardless of my consciousness being aware of it or not. In actuality, my brain reveals to my consciousness only a tiny infinitesimal fraction, a trivial superficial portion, of what it is doing. The brain charges ahead relentlessly, irrespective of what the consciousness is or is not aware of. It never stops so that it can wait for the approval, opinion, or advice of the consciousness, which is impossible anyway.
So if I ask you to think of an image of an orange, does that image appear in your mind's eye?

Of course, for that image to appear in your mind's eye means an interaction has taken place where the conscious part of the brain causes the brain function to retrieve the information required for the image to appear (within the mind's eye)...agreed?
Yes, so long as you are referring to a physical consciousness.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:17 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:11 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:57 pm

Yes, I think I have a "mind's eye," which means I can tell when the rods and cones in the retinas of my eyes are stimulated by light in a way that makes my brain recognize the patterns of an object we call "an apple." But it's not my mind that tells my brain that that pattern of excited neurons looks like an apple. My brain recognizes the apple regardless of my consciousness being aware of it or not. In actuality, my brain reveals to my consciousness only a tiny infinitesimal fraction, a trivial superficial portion, of what it is doing. The brain charges ahead relentlessly, irrespective of what the consciousness is or is not aware of. It never stops so that it can wait for the approval, opinion, or advice of the consciousness, which is impossible anyway.
So if I ask you to think of an image of an orange, does that image appear in your mind's eye?

Of course, for that image to appear in your mind's eye means an interaction has taken place where the conscious part of the brain causes the brain function to retrieve the information required for the image to appear (within the mind's eye)...agreed?
Yes, so long as you are referring to a physical consciousness.
Awesome! I can't imagine anything pertaining to perception of reality that does not have something related to physics.

So do you consider yourself a hard determinist?
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:21 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:17 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:11 pm

So if I ask you to think of an image of an orange, does that image appear in your mind's eye?

Of course, for that image to appear in your mind's eye means an interaction has taken place where the conscious part of the brain causes the brain function to retrieve the information required for the image to appear (within the mind's eye)...agreed?
Yes, so long as you are referring to a physical consciousness.
Awesome! I can't imagine anything pertaining to perception of reality that does not have something related to physics.

So do you consider yourself a hard determinist?
Hehe. Yes. As hard as they get.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:27 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:21 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:17 pm

Yes, so long as you are referring to a physical consciousness.
Awesome! I can't imagine anything pertaining to perception of reality that does not have something related to physics.

So do you consider yourself a hard determinist?
Hehe. Yes. As hard as they get.
lol.

A thought experiment, have you heard of “Boony’s Room”?

It’s a philosophical enquiry into determinism where two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?

atto doesn't think so, how about you BigMike?

A religion for the discerning atheist: www.boonyism.com
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:36 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:27 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:21 pm

Awesome! I can't imagine anything pertaining to perception of reality that does not have something related to physics.

So do you consider yourself a hard determinist?
Hehe. Yes. As hard as they get.
lol.

A thought experiment, have you heard of “Boony’s Room”?

It’s a philosophical enquiry into determinism where two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?

atto doesn't think so, how about you BigMike?

A religion for the discerning atheist: www.boonyism.com
No, I am unfamiliar with that puzzle. Nonetheless, this is an intriguing brain teaser. I assume that the two copies are identical in every way, right down to the position and momentum of each electron in each body. I believe that initially they will mimic each other's behavior, but small differences in quantum randomness and, for example, the earth's magnetic field in their respective corners will gradually cause their behaviors to diverge.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:50 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:36 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:27 pm

Hehe. Yes. As hard as they get.
lol.

A thought experiment, have you heard of “Boony’s Room”?

It’s a philosophical enquiry into determinism where two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?

atto doesn't think so, how about you BigMike?

A religion for the discerning atheist: www.boonyism.com
No, I am unfamiliar with that puzzle. Nonetheless, this is an intriguing brain teaser. I assume that the two copies are identical in every way, right down to the position and momentum of each electron in each body. I believe that initially they will mimic each other's behavior, but small differences in quantum randomness and, for example, the earth's magnetic field in their respective corners will gradually cause their behaviors to diverge.
Oh, well played. I like the magnetic field idea, but yes they are identical in every way at instantiation into the room.

I wonder how long a hard determinist as yourself would consider that the two Boonys would keep spitting out the same verbal outputs? :)
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:55 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:50 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:36 pm

lol.

A thought experiment, have you heard of “Boony’s Room”?

It’s a philosophical enquiry into determinism where two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?

atto doesn't think so, how about you BigMike?

A religion for the discerning atheist: www.boonyism.com
No, I am unfamiliar with that puzzle. Nonetheless, this is an intriguing brain teaser. I assume that the two copies are identical in every way, right down to the position and momentum of each electron in each body. I believe that initially they will mimic each other's behavior, but small differences in quantum randomness and, for example, the earth's magnetic field in their respective corners will gradually cause their behaviors to diverge.
Oh, well played. I like the magnetic field idea, but yes they are identical in every way at instantiation into the room.

I wonder how long a hard determinist as yourself would consider that the two Boonys would keep spitting out the same verbal outputs? :)
Naturally, differences in behavior will begin to appear almost immediately, but a human observer won't be able to recognize them because they will be so subtle. I have no idea how long it would take for everyone to agree that the differences are evident.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:05 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:50 am
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:10 am

I do. I don't think the mind interacts with the brain. It's impossible. The mind, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, is only aware what the brain "did" after the fact, which has nothing to do with what the brain does or doesn't do.
Mind is a function of the brain, a product of, and the mind's sole idea is the body.

The mind's sole idea is the body? Are you saying that the "mind," which comes from the brain, does its own "brainless" thinking on top of what the brain has already done?
if I may interject, the mind is the idea of the body

includes 'brain' with ' body' .Mind is not a separate substance from brain but is brain(and body -proper)from the subjective aspect. Obviously the anatomist or the physiologist views brain and body-proper from the objective aspect.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by popeye1945 »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:05 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:50 am
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:10 am

I do. I don't think the mind interacts with the brain. It's impossible. The mind, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, is only aware what the brain "did" after the fact, which has nothing to do with what the brain does or doesn't do.
Mind is a function of the brain, a product of, and the mind's sole idea is the body.
The mind's sole idea is the body? Are you saying that the "mind," which comes from the brain, does its own "brainless" thinking on top of what the brain has already done?
The brain is a physical organ whose function is mind/awareness and what it is aware of is its body, and through the body, the mind knows the physical world as object/s. It is only through the alterations of the physical body that we experience, the physical world is cause, our experiences are reactions and our reactions are the physical world. Think of it this way, experience is reaction to the energies of the cosmos, and that energy which is not experienced is said to be unmanifested or unmanifested as object or apparent reality. The state of one's biology determines one's apparent reality.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:43 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:05 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:50 am

Mind is a function of the brain, a product of, and the mind's sole idea is the body.

The mind's sole idea is the body? Are you saying that the "mind," which comes from the brain, does its own "brainless" thinking on top of what the brain has already done?
if I may interject, the mind is the idea of the body

includes 'brain' with ' body' .Mind is not a separate substance from brain but is brain(and body -proper)from the subjective aspect. Obviously the anatomist or the physiologist views brain and body-proper from the objective aspect.
Belinda, is what you are inferring full body consciousness, if so, it would be difficult to deny. I believe awareness itself is function and not material, just as thought is not physical but the product of the physical.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:05 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:55 pm
BigMike wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:50 pm
No, I am unfamiliar with that puzzle. Nonetheless, this is an intriguing brain teaser. I assume that the two copies are identical in every way, right down to the position and momentum of each electron in each body. I believe that initially they will mimic each other's behavior, but small differences in quantum randomness and, for example, the earth's magnetic field in their respective corners will gradually cause their behaviors to diverge.
Oh, well played. I like the magnetic field idea, but yes they are identical in every way at instantiation into the room.

I wonder how long a hard determinist as yourself would consider that the two Boonys would keep spitting out the same verbal outputs? :)
Naturally, differences in behavior will begin to appear almost immediately, but a human observer won't be able to recognize them because they will be so subtle. I have no idea how long it would take for everyone to agree that the differences are evident.
I'd say an observer would see differences after about two words!
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