And, compelled by brains wholly in sync with the laws of matter, around and around and around we go.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:04 pmIwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pm I think he is reacting to the same thing I reacted to.Given my own understanding of a wholly determined universe, Mary aborting Jane was never not going to be the fate of both of them. Jane is shredded out of existence.
Given my own understanding of free will, Mary is intent on aborting Jane but she gets a call from a friend who is able to persuade her not to. Jane is still around today.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pm1) you present two different outcomes, one in the determined universe, one in the free will universe.
2) you explain, it seems, or imply, it seems, that the difference in the free will universe is that Mary doesn't abort because she got a phone call.Wait, are you opting to not take any responsibility for what you wrote? You don't have any idea why you wrote those scenarios like that?Yes, but over and over and over and over again, I make it clear I have no capacity to demonstrate whether in presenting outcomes or in explaining why I present them as I do, I am doing so only because my brain as matter wholly in sync with the immutable laws of matter compels me to...or if "somehow" my brain did acquire the capacity to exercise volition, autonomy, free will and I could have opted not to present what I did but, in thinking it through further, opting to present something else instead.
It's not what I opt to do here but whether I was ever able to opt not to do it. Freely as it were.
In fact -- click -- this whole thread [for me] revolves around how on Earth compatibilists demonstrate [even to themselves] how Mary is still morally responsible for aborting Jane in a universe "set up" such that she was never able to opt not to abort her.
If I was never able to not write those scenarios would not the reasons for writing them also be included in nature's "package deal". After all, the ideas themselves are derived from brain matter no less embedded in the only possible reality.
Only brain matter is clearly very, very peculiar matter indeed.
Then this part: How peculiar? The part that, among others, brain scientists [compelled or not] are grappling with experimentally.
You tell me. Where's your pile of empirical, experimental, scientific, philosophical, theological, etc., evidence to finally pin it down?
Really? The fact that even the folks in the scientific community itself are not able to pin it down yet, it still has nothing to do with definitively understanding why I wrote what I did and why you read what I wrote?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:04 pm I can't pin it down. But then, that has nothing to with what you wrote.
Click.
I am clearly missing your point then.
Either because my brain compelled me to mention it or because, given some measure of free will, it seemed reasonable to me at the time to note one possible explanation for why Mary changed her mind and brought Jane into the world.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:04 pmWhy did you mention a phone call changing her mind in the second scenario, for example?
Then I'm back to wondering if anything that phyllo thinks, feels, says or does is or is not in fact only as he ever could think, feel, say and do...or whether someone here is able to provide us with, what, the ontological -- teleological? -- "theory of everything" going back to the existence of existence itself?
Finally pinning down where the "human condition" itself fits into the staggering vastness of "all there is"? And beyond all dispute?
[/b]Again, as I noted above, it's not the outcomes.[/b] it's the part where the human brain "somehow" acquired the capacity to participate in human interactions leading up to any and all outcomes autonomously that matters most.
"Either because my brain compelled me to write them or because, given some measure of free will, it seemed reasonable to me at the time to write them".
If John and Mary and Jane and the friend are all inherently, necessarily "at one" with the only possible reality, in the only possible universe, there is only the outcome. Period. Nature's outcome.
"Either because my brain compelled me to describe them as I did or because, given some measure of free will, it seemed reasonable to me at the time to describe them as I did".Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:04 pmUm, yeah. I understand what determinism entails. You could still explain why you chose to describe the two scenarios the way you did.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmIt is as if in a free will universe a person can have their mind changed by someone else but not in a determined universe.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmAre you saying it is more likely she wouldn't get an abortion in a free will universe?
I'm saying that in a free will world the actual option not to abort is there! In a determined universe where Mary cannot not abort Jane, it's not. Jane is shredded into oblivion. I don't understand why this distinction puzzles some.
Exactly. The key word being determined.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmOr in the determined universe she couldn't help but change her mind via the phone call.
No, I'm saying that in a free will world, the friend has the option to call Mary. And that call persuades Mary not to abort Jane. In a determined universe, the friend is either compelled to call or not call. But the call [or any other factor] doesn't alter the fact that all of the variables involved here are necessarily at one with the laws of matter precipitating the only possible reality: abortion.
Yes, I am claiming that. If we live in a wholly determined universe as I understand it, the laws of matter make us think, feel, say and do everything.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmOK, thank you for trying to answer my question. From what you were saying I thought you were going to raise other issues and claim that determinism made you write what you wrote.
And, for some, compelled or not, that's rather comforting. While, for others, compelled or not, that's very, very disturbing. The part that, given free will, I root in dasein.