Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pm
I think he is reacting to the same thing I reacted to.
Given my own understanding of a wholly determined universe, Mary aborting Jane was never not going to be the fate of both of them. Jane is shredded out of existence.
Given my own understanding of free will, Mary is intent on aborting Jane but she gets a call from a friend who is able to persuade her not to. Jane is still around today.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pm1) you present two different outcomes, one in the determined universe, one in the free will universe.
2) you explain, it seems, or imply, it seems, that the difference in the free will universe is that Mary doesn't abort because she got a phone call.
Yes, but over and over and over and over again, I make it clear I have no capacity to demonstrate whether in presenting outcomes or in explaining why I present them as I do, I am doing so only because my brain as matter wholly in sync with the immutable laws of matter compels me to...or if "somehow" my brain did acquire the capacity to exercise volition, autonomy, free will and I could have opted not to present what I did but, in thinking it through further, opting to present something else instead.
I don't know how to make this any plainer if, in fact, I am,
of my own volition, able to. Now, what if I'm not?
You tell me. Where's
your pile of empirical, experimental, scientific, philosophical, theological, etc., evidence to finally pin it down?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmI could be wrong, but I think phyllo is wondering why the outcomes need be different? further given that in the free will scenario a phone call
causes Mary to change her mind, how is this different from what would happen in a determined universe if Mary got the call. A phone call in a determinist universe would change Mary's mind (if that's the way the causes to effects went).
Then I'm back to wondering if
anything that phyllo thinks, feels, says or does is or is not in fact only as he ever could think, feel, say and do...or whether someone here is able to provide us with, what, the ontological -- teleological? -- "theory of everything" going back to the existence of existence itself?
Finally pinning down where the "human condition" itself fits into the staggering vastness of "all there is"? And beyond all dispute?
Again, as I noted above, it's not the outcomes...it's the part where the human brain "somehow" acquired the capacity to participate in human interactions leading up to any and all outcomes autonomously that matters most.
If John and Mary and Jane and the friend are all inherently, necessarily "at one" with the only possible reality, in the only possible universe, there is only
the outcome. Period. Nature's outcome.
Whatever that means.
Of course with phyllo there is also a spiritual/religious component. See if you can grasp how he intertwines all of this into that. Into...God? After all, with God, free will is just another manifestation of the Soul, right?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmIt is as if in a free will universe a person can have their mind changed by someone else but not in a determined universe.
Again, back to dreams. A few weeks ago I had a particular intense dream in which I changed mind about going to an old friend Danny's house. And, as a result of that [in the dream], my friend Danny committed suicide. Then I wake up and realize that while this dream reflects an actual experience in my life, here it was all unfolding chemically and neurologically re my brain itself.
Now, how is that different from the actual experience I had "in reality" some years ago? Changing my mind about something in a dream, changing my mind about something in the waking world.
Same brain, right?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmAre you saying it is more likely she wouldn't get an abortion in a free will universe?
I'm saying that in a free will world the actual option
not to abort is there! In a determined universe where Mary cannot
not abort Jane, it's not. Jane is shredded into oblivion. I don't understand why this distinction puzzles some.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmAre you saying phone calls to Mary are the result of free will?
No, I'm saying that in a free will world, the friend has the option to call Mary. And that call persuades Mary not to abort Jane. In a determined universe, the friend is either compelled to call or not call. But the call [or any other factor] doesn't alter the fact that all of the variables involved here are
necessarily at one with the laws of matter precipitating the only possible reality: abortion.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmAre you saying that there would be more people trying to disuade her in a free will universe?
With my Mary, only John was trying to dissuade her.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmAre you saying that she is more likely to be affected by a phone call in a free will universe?
Again, if she lives in a free will universe, the calls will be made autonomously. In a wholly determined universe the calls will or will not be made as a manifestation of the only possible reality.
Again, there must be something that I am missing in regard to reactions like phyllo's and yours. If, of course, my reactions are, in fact, autonomous at all
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:06 pmBoth scenarios (what happens) in your understandings of those two types of universes could happen in both types.
So, what are your examples meant to demonstrate?
I've explained my own distinction here over and again. You and others are either compelled to react to them only as you must, or you have the option to freely think through my points here and maybe change your mind about them. Or change my mind about them.