compatibilism

[Walker]

I couldn't agree more!

So, I can count you as my plus one for the next meeting of the Libertarian Free Willies (AKA: the Screw Determinism Club)?

Determinism means everything that happened in the past had to happen and could not have been otherwise than it was. Determinism does not mean that what happened in the past must happen in the future especially to men who are relatively free men. Relatively free men have many choices, slaves have few choices, whereas inanimate things have no choices at all.

The past can be so recent that it appears to be the unfolding present.

The following quote explains why many choices indicates confusion.

“Choice, it seems to me, is an act of confusion. When I'm bewildered, uncertain, confused, then I choose; and I say to myself, "I choose out of my freedom; I am free to choose". But is not choice the outcome of uncertainty? Out of my confusion, bewilderment, uncertainty, the feeling of being incapable of clarity - out of this I act. I choose a leader; I choose a certain course of action; and I commit myself to a particular activity, but that activity, that pattern of action, the pursuit of a particular mode of thought is the result of my confusion. If I'm not confused, if there is no confusion whatsoever, then there is no choice; I see things as they are. I act not on choice.”
NEW YORK 3RD PUBLIC TALK 30TH SEPTEMBER 1966
https://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1966/ ... ublic-talk

[henry quirk]

If the brain can't do it, the mind can't do it. If it's in a mind, there's a neural correlate.

So: brain does mind, yes?

[henry quirk]

If information doesn't interact with matter, which it doesn't, it's not material.

Okay. Software (instructions for hardware) is information, which is immaterial. So how does software interact with hardware?

Software is a classification of data imprinted on the surface layer of one or more rotating disks using various electronic, magnetic, optical, or mechanical modifications. It is physical. The computer's operating system is hardwired (by humans) to read that information and transfer it to it's internal memory when the user clicks keys in a certain sequence or turns the computer on and it executes the program one line at a time. It may seem like magic to some, but it's not. I myself have written several high quality commercial computer programs that customers have paid to acquire. It's hard work.
When I was studying mathematical logic, we used to distinguish between a logical statement's syntax (the physical black ink depicting letters and symbols on the page of a book) and its semantics (the meaning of those symbols). The syntax is obviously physical, the semantics is not. Computers must be instructed (by humans who made the computer's hardware, its CPU) what to do when it reads the syntax of software, and software writers must make sure that their software complies with those rule. If not, the software may crash.

I'm confused, Dom. You say information doesn't interact with matter but it can be read, transferred, executed (meaning: it causes hardware to do sumthin'). Seems to me there's a whole lot of interactin' goin' on between material and immaterial. Moreover, the immaterial seems to largely be callin' the shots.

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=587869 time=1659533954 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=587824 time=1659502105 user_id=15238]
If the brain can't do it, the mind can't do it. If it's in a mind, there's a neural correlate.
[/quote]

So: brain [i]does[/i] mind, yes?
[/quote]

Mind is a metaphor for the patterns in the brain. They're distinctive in use, not different in reality.

[henry quirk]

I couldn't agree more!

So, I can count you as my plus one for the next meeting of the Libertarian Free Willies (AKA: the Screw Determinism Club)?

Determinism means everything that happened in the past had to happen and could not have been otherwise than it was. Determinism does not mean that what happened in the past must happen in the future especially to men who are relatively free men. Relatively free men have many choices, slaves have few choices, whereas inanimate things have no choices at all.

Yes, yesterday is done and tomorrow is up in the air.

The questions...

Does yesterday determine a man today, or does merely influence him?

Is man an event (bio-automation) or is he a cause (a free will)?

Now, you know me, B: I don't take half-ass'd or moderate positions.

I say man is a cause, an agent, a free will, exempt -- at least partially -- from the chains of cause & effect. Moreover I say man can begin, end, and bend causal chains. I say man is not determined, but free.
and: I say compatibilism is for crap

[henry quirk]

Mind is a metaphor for the patterns in the brain. They're distinctive in use, not different in reality.

So, again: brain does mind, yeah?

[BigMike]

Okay. Software (instructions for hardware) is information, which is immaterial. So how does software interact with hardware?

Software is a classification of data imprinted on the surface layer of one or more rotating disks using various electronic, magnetic, optical, or mechanical modifications. It is physical. The computer's operating system is hardwired (by humans) to read that information and transfer it to it's internal memory when the user clicks keys in a certain sequence or turns the computer on and it executes the program one line at a time. It may seem like magic to some, but it's not. I myself have written several high quality commercial computer programs that customers have paid to acquire. It's hard work.
When I was studying mathematical logic, we used to distinguish between a logical statement's syntax (the physical black ink depicting letters and symbols on the page of a book) and its semantics (the meaning of those symbols). The syntax is obviously physical, the semantics is not. Computers must be instructed (by humans who made the computer's hardware, its CPU) what to do when it reads the syntax of software, and software writers must make sure that their software complies with those rule. If not, the software may crash.

I'm confused, Dom. You say information doesn't interact with matter but it can be read, transferred, executed (meaning: it causes hardware to do sumthin'). Seems to me there's a whole lot of interactin' goin' on between material and immaterial. Moreover, the immaterial seems to largely be callin' the shots.

It's adorable how quickly you get tripped up.

[henry quirk]

Software is a classification of data imprinted on the surface layer of one or more rotating disks using various electronic, magnetic, optical, or mechanical modifications. It is physical. The computer's operating system is hardwired (by humans) to read that information and transfer it to it's internal memory when the user clicks keys in a certain sequence or turns the computer on and it executes the program one line at a time. It may seem like magic to some, but it's not. I myself have written several high quality commercial computer programs that customers have paid to acquire. It's hard work.
When I was studying mathematical logic, we used to distinguish between a logical statement's syntax (the physical black ink depicting letters and symbols on the page of a book) and its semantics (the meaning of those symbols). The syntax is obviously physical, the semantics is not. Computers must be instructed (by humans who made the computer's hardware, its CPU) what to do when it reads the syntax of software, and software writers must make sure that their software complies with those rule. If not, the software may crash.

I'm confused, Dom. You say information doesn't interact with matter but it can be read, transferred, executed (meaning: it causes hardware to do sumthin'). Seems to me there's a whole lot of interactin' goin' on between material and immaterial. Moreover, the immaterial seems to largely be callin' the shots.

It's adorable how quickly you get tripped up.

Instead of gloatin': educate me.

[BigMike]

You say information doesn't interact with matter but it can be read, transferred, executed (meaning: it causes hardware to do sumthin'). Seems to me there's a whole lot of interactin' goin' on between material and immaterial. Moreover, the immaterial seems to largely be callin' the shots.

I also said that the information's syntax is physical. It interacts primarily through electromagnetic (light) waves reflected off letters and symbols on a piece of paper, a computer screen, or what have you, or it's magnetic representation on a hard-drive can be picked up by a "head" (this is the "needle" that reads the data from the disk). But you know this, surely.

[henry quirk]

I also said that the information's syntax is physical.

This is what you say up-thread...

If information doesn't interact with matter, which it doesn't, it's not material.

Obviously: if physical syntax can store semantics (information) there's an interaction between the two (the information dictates the state of the syntax) . And since that information is instructions for hardware, there's not not only interaction between immaterial and material but the immaterial, as it tells the material what do, is mostly callin' the shots.

What am I missin'?

Are you sayin' the information is physical or was made physical? If so, there was interaction.

[BigMike]

I also said that the information's syntax is physical.

This is what you say up-thread...

If information doesn't interact with matter, which it doesn't, it's not material.

Obviously: if physical syntax can store semantics (information) there's an interaction between the two (the information dictates the state of the syntax) . And since that information is instructions for hardware, there's not not only interaction between immaterial and material but the immaterial, as it tells the material what do, is mostly callin' the shots.

What am I missin'?

Are you sayin' the information is physical or was made physical? If so, there was interaction.

Here's the syntax of a symbol: "Φ". As it is plainly physical, I may pass it on to you. It holds information; it means something to me. But to you, it probably doesn't mean anything. As a result, I'll have to resort to meta-language in order to convey its semantics (a metalanguage is a language used to describe the meaning of another language or symbolic system). English is the metalanguage I'm using to explain "Φ" (the object language) to you right now: By "Φ" I mean "I love you". But don't take it literally.
Get it? The semantics can not interact with physical matter, so it can't be transferred directly. Using a syntax like a metalanguage, one can at least make an attempt at an explanation. We can never be certain, however, that your understanding and mine will be the same. We can only hope for the best, and try to increase confidence that it is understood with questions and answers. That's why we had tests at school.

[henry quirk]

Dom,

Let me review the thread and refresh my head.

More tomorrow.

[Belinda]

So, I can count you as my plus one for the next meeting of the Libertarian Free Willies (AKA: the Screw Determinism Club)?

Determinism means everything that happened in the past had to happen and could not have been otherwise than it was. Determinism does not mean that what happened in the past must happen in the future especially to men who are relatively free men. Relatively free men have many choices, slaves have few choices, whereas inanimate things have no choices at all.

The past can be so recent that it appears to be the unfolding present.

The following quote explains why many choices indicates confusion.

“Choice, it seems to me, is an act of confusion. When I'm bewildered, uncertain, confused, then I choose; and I say to myself, "I choose out of my freedom; I am free to choose". But is not choice the outcome of uncertainty? Out of my confusion, bewilderment, uncertainty, the feeling of being incapable of clarity - out of this I act. I choose a leader; I choose a certain course of action; and I commit myself to a particular activity, but that activity, that pattern of action, the pursuit of a particular mode of thought is the result of my confusion. If I'm not confused, if there is no confusion whatsoever, then there is no choice; I see things as they are. I act not on choice.”
NEW YORK 3RD PUBLIC TALK 30TH SEPTEMBER 1966
https://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1966/ ... ublic-talk

I don't know about Krishnamurti but I am partisan to uncertainy.

[Iwannaplato]

Mind is a metaphor for the patterns in the brain. They're distinctive in use, not different in reality.

So, again: brain does mind, yeah?

You're admirably patient with someone who thinks and says you are necessarily evil. I'm not even a free willist - 'agnositc' - and I had less patience.

[Belinda]

So, I can count you as my plus one for the next meeting of the Libertarian Free Willies (AKA: the Screw Determinism Club)?

Determinism means everything that happened in the past had to happen and could not have been otherwise than it was. Determinism does not mean that what happened in the past must happen in the future especially to men who are relatively free men. Relatively free men have many choices, slaves have few choices, whereas inanimate things have no choices at all.

Yes, yesterday is done and tomorrow is up in the air.

The questions...

Does yesterday determine a man today, or does merely influence him?

Is man an event (bio-automation) or is he a cause (a free will)?

Now, you know me, B: I don't take half-ass'd or moderate positions.

I say man is a cause, an agent, a free will, exempt -- at least partially -- from the chains of cause & effect. Moreover I say man can begin, end, and bend causal chains. I say man is not determined, but free.
and: I say compatibilism is for crap

Yesterday influences men when they are not demented men. Demented men lack common sense let alone knowing a lot about what causes what.


A man is a cause in a background of causes. Some men are more predictable than others. Extremely unpredictable men are madmen or geniuses. Some men have freer wills than others . Those who lack the ability to choose freely as free individuals are slavish in a manner of speaking. There is no such thing as supernatural 'Free Will'.

Henry is anything but half -hearted. However Henry lacks much of the academic big guns that would increase his freedom. I suspect Henry is influenced by a cultural prejudice against academia, and that prejudice is what holds him back from the degree of freedom he deserves.