compatibilism

So what's really going on?

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BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

Advocate wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:36 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:29 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:15 pm As soon as somebody(or some animal) picks a fairly stable pattern out of the background, then there is an entity which is 'you' or a cat or a tree or a car, etc.

It has properties and does actions. If it did not have these, then it would not be a "fairly stable pattern".
That seems to fit with my concept of a physical body, in which case my brain, being part of my body, does the reflecting and thinking. What are you getting at here?
A thing is a pattern in a mind; a set of attributes and boundary conditions by which it is differentiated from all other things according to purpose. Outside a mind is only undifferentiated stuff.

The stability of the pattern is relevant to its purpose. A bare change from living to dead might be all but indistinguishable and have extraordinary consequences while a black hole can suck up planets and no one cares.
You've completely lost me there.
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attofishpi
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:48 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:17 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:28 am

I think that "qualia inputs" are the firing of neurons that were first set off by hormones in the bloodstream or by the senses in the afferent peripheral nervous system. This starts a chain reaction in which one neuron sends a signal to the next neuron in a one-way flow, from the dendrites to the axon terminals.

The signal thus pushes forward at lightning speed, possibly with feedback loops, until it either fizzles out, causes a muscle to contract, or a gland to release a chemical (hormone). It doesn't stop anywhere to "reflect upon ones previously acquired knowledge", because that knowledge is already built into the structure and branching of the neural network, thanks to how we remember and learn.
Wait, are you saying that you are so determined that you don't consciously reflect or think?
Indeed, my brain is responsible for all of my thinking.
So, you're into maths.

Can everything in the physical universe be defined by mathematical equations?
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phyllo
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Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:29 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:15 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:59 pm

Define what you mean by "you".
As soon as somebody(or some animal) picks a fairly stable pattern out of the background, then there is an entity which is 'you' or a cat or a tree or a car, etc.

It has properties and does actions. If it did not have these, then it would not be a "fairly stable pattern".
That seems to fit with my concept of a physical body, in which case my brain, being part of my body, does the reflecting and thinking. What are you getting at here?
What I'm getting at is that I don't understand your reply to Attofishpi. (Your reply to this :"1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge). ")

I don't see that he is saying anything bizarre. I don't see why you needed to give him a lesson in neurons and brain chemistry. Yeah, he used the word 'mind' but does that warrant a spanking.

Your reply suggests that there is no conscious reflection or conscious thinking.

That's why I asked you to clarify. Is that your position?
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:19 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:29 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:15 pm As soon as somebody(or some animal) picks a fairly stable pattern out of the background, then there is an entity which is 'you' or a cat or a tree or a car, etc.

It has properties and does actions. If it did not have these, then it would not be a "fairly stable pattern".
That seems to fit with my concept of a physical body, in which case my brain, being part of my body, does the reflecting and thinking. What are you getting at here?
What I'm getting at is that I don't understand your reply to Attofishpi. (Your reply to this :"1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge). ")

I don't see that he is saying anything bizarre. I don't see why you needed to give him a lesson in neurons and brain chemistry. Yeah, he used the word 'mind' but does that warrant a spanking.

Your reply suggests that there is no conscious reflection or conscious thinking.

That's why I asked you to clarify. Is that your position?
At its most basic level, consciousness is feeling and being aware that you and other people exist. There is no such thing as conscious reflection or conscious thinking, in the way most people think about it, because you can't think without a brain, and consciousness doesn't have one. Your consciousness can only be aware of your brain's thoughts; not impact them in any way.
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phyllo
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Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:05 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:19 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:29 pm That seems to fit with my concept of a physical body, in which case my brain, being part of my body, does the reflecting and thinking. What are you getting at here?
What I'm getting at is that I don't understand your reply to Attofishpi. (Your reply to this :"1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge). ")

I don't see that he is saying anything bizarre. I don't see why you needed to give him a lesson in neurons and brain chemistry. Yeah, he used the word 'mind' but does that warrant a spanking.

Your reply suggests that there is no conscious reflection or conscious thinking.

That's why I asked you to clarify. Is that your position?
At its most basic level, consciousness is feeling and being aware that you and other people exist. There is no such thing as conscious reflection or conscious thinking, in the way most people think about it, because you can't think without a brain, and consciousness doesn't have one. Your consciousness can only be aware of your brain's thoughts; not impact them in any way.
Oh, I see.

You think that people are proposing consciousness as entirely separate thinking system instead just making a distinction between conscious and subconscious processing in the brain.
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:21 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:05 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:19 pm What I'm getting at is that I don't understand your reply to Attofishpi. (Your reply to this :"1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge). ")

I don't see that he is saying anything bizarre. I don't see why you needed to give him a lesson in neurons and brain chemistry. Yeah, he used the word 'mind' but does that warrant a spanking.

Your reply suggests that there is no conscious reflection or conscious thinking.

That's why I asked you to clarify. Is that your position?
At its most basic level, consciousness is feeling and being aware that you and other people exist. There is no such thing as conscious reflection or conscious thinking, in the way most people think about it, because you can't think without a brain, and consciousness doesn't have one. Your consciousness can only be aware of your brain's thoughts; not impact them in any way.
Oh, I see.

You think that people are proposing consciousness as entirely separate thinking system instead just making a distinction between conscious and subconscious processing in the brain.
I do think that, yes. I think that people not only believe that an immaterial thing they call consciousness, mind, soul, or whatever can affect or be responsible for thoughts, but also that all of their memories, wisdom, and knowledge are stored there. All that is nonsense, of course.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Age »

BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:36 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:21 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:05 pm

At its most basic level, consciousness is feeling and being aware that you and other people exist. There is no such thing as conscious reflection or conscious thinking, in the way most people think about it, because you can't think without a brain, and consciousness doesn't have one. Your consciousness can only be aware of your brain's thoughts; not impact them in any way.
Oh, I see.

You think that people are proposing consciousness as entirely separate thinking system instead just making a distinction between conscious and subconscious processing in the brain.
I do think that, yes. I think that people not only believe that an immaterial thing they call consciousness, mind, soul, or whatever can affect or be responsible for thoughts, but also that all of their memories, wisdom, and knowledge are stored there.
It is this kind of thinking, assuming, and/or believing WHY discussions do NOT lead towards learning, thus towards progression, itself.
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:36 pm All that is nonsense, of course.
WHY, is 'ALL of that nonsense, of course?

you also BELIEVE 'free will' is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, of course, correct?
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attofishpi
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:36 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:21 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:05 pm

At its most basic level, consciousness is feeling and being aware that you and other people exist. There is no such thing as conscious reflection or conscious thinking, in the way most people think about it, because you can't think without a brain, and consciousness doesn't have one. Your consciousness can only be aware of your brain's thoughts; not impact them in any way.
Oh, I see.

You think that people are proposing consciousness as entirely separate thinking system instead just making a distinction between conscious and subconscious processing in the brain.
I do think that, yes. I think that people not only believe that an immaterial thing they call consciousness, mind, soul, or whatever can affect or be responsible for thoughts, but also that all of their memories, wisdom, and knowledge are stored there. All that is nonsense, of course.
Are you stating that being conscious does not exist, that it is nonsense and that someone that is conscious cannot recall on stored knowledge/memory in the brain (to reflect conscious choices upon) since that also is nonsense?
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:46 am
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:36 pm
phyllo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:21 pm Oh, I see.

You think that people are proposing consciousness as entirely separate thinking system instead just making a distinction between conscious and subconscious processing in the brain.
I do think that, yes. I think that people not only believe that an immaterial thing they call consciousness, mind, soul, or whatever can affect or be responsible for thoughts, but also that all of their memories, wisdom, and knowledge are stored there. All that is nonsense, of course.
Are you stating that being conscious does not exist, that it is nonsense and that someone that is conscious cannot recall on stored knowledge/memory in the brain (to reflect conscious choices upon) since that also is nonsense?
No. Your consciousness lets you know what your brain is thinking, but it can't change what your brain is thinking. Your brain, not your consciousness, is what thinks. Your brain also doesn't ask your consciousness for advice or what it thinks because your consciousness has neither. Also, all of your memories and knowledge are stored in your brain, not in your consciousness.
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attofishpi
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:44 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:46 am
BigMike wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:36 pm

I do think that, yes. I think that people not only believe that an immaterial thing they call consciousness, mind, soul, or whatever can affect or be responsible for thoughts, but also that all of their memories, wisdom, and knowledge are stored there. All that is nonsense, of course.
Are you stating that being conscious does not exist, that it is nonsense and that someone that is conscious cannot recall on stored knowledge/memory in the brain (to reflect conscious choices upon) since that also is nonsense?
No. Your consciousness lets you know what your brain is thinking, but it can't change what your brain is thinking. Your brain, not your consciousness, is what thinks.
Thinking is the main part of consciousness and it certainly does make alterations, changes within the brain (decisions).

BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:44 amYour brain also doesn't ask your consciousness for advice or what it thinks because your consciousness has neither. Also, all of your memories and knowledge are stored in your brain, not in your consciousness.
The only thing we are in agreement with is that memories/knowledge are stored within the brain.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:46 pm
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:44 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:46 am

Are you stating that being conscious does not exist, that it is nonsense and that someone that is conscious cannot recall on stored knowledge/memory in the brain (to reflect conscious choices upon) since that also is nonsense?
No. Your consciousness lets you know what your brain is thinking, but it can't change what your brain is thinking. Your brain, not your consciousness, is what thinks.
Thinking is the main part of consciousness and it certainly does make alterations, changes within the brain (decisions).
How is it possible for consciousness to think without a brain?
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attofishpi
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:50 pm
attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:46 pm
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:44 am
No. Your consciousness lets you know what your brain is thinking, but it can't change what your brain is thinking. Your brain, not your consciousness, is what thinks.
Thinking is the main part of consciousness and it certainly does make alterations, changes within the brain (decisions).
How is it possible for consciousness to think without a brain?
You're jumping to conclusions chum. Where am I stating there is no brain?
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:53 pm
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:50 pm
attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:46 pm

Thinking is the main part of consciousness and it certainly does make alterations, changes within the brain (decisions).
How is it possible for consciousness to think without a brain?
You're jumping to conclusions chum. Where am I stating there is no brain?
So you're saying that the consciousness has its own brain?
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attofishpi
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Re: compatibilism

Post by attofishpi »

BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:32 pm
attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:53 pm
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:50 pm

How is it possible for consciousness to think without a brain?
You're jumping to conclusions chum. Where am I stating there is no brain?
So you're saying that the consciousness has its own brain?
No. I am saying that being conscious includes thinking and functions within the brain. Why do you keep inisisting on absurd inferrences from what I am stating?
BigMike
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Re: compatibilism

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:54 pm
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:32 pm
attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:53 pm

You're jumping to conclusions chum. Where am I stating there is no brain?
So you're saying that the consciousness has its own brain?
No. I am saying that being conscious includes thinking and functions within the brain. Why do you keep inisisting on absurd inferrences from what I am stating?
I'm trying to get a grasp on what it is you're trying to convey here. Is it a reasonable assumption to make based on what you said that your consciousness in some way controls the way that your brain functions?
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