Death as Metaphysical Subject?

So what's really going on?

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Age
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

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jayjacobus wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:40 pm
Age wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:05 am
Zarathustra wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:40 pm

I don't think philosophy is all about juggling with definitions.
Neither do I. So we are in agreement here.
Zarathustra wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:40 pm OK. definitions are important. It saves a lot of confusion if you get it right, and also agree with others in debates.
But what will be found is when you come to an agreement about the definitions of words, and do get it Right, then there is, literally, nothing at all to 'debate' anyway.
Zarathustra wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:40 pm But it is not all there is to it.

What I was after from this thread was seeing some lights in the arguments such as, when the livings like us who has never experienced death directly in our own life, can discuss the topic like this in any logical and meaningful manner, and in metaphysical sense.
Yes we can. All the True, Right, Accurate, and Correct answers in Life can be found, through logically reasoned, peaceful discussions.
Zarathustra wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:40 pm Or would it be the case of blind people describing the nature of elephant, after touching one elephant's leg.
But what is there about 'death' that you still do not yet understand?

If you let us know that, then we can fill you in with the Right answers.

Also, I suggest LOOKING AT the whole elephant, and not just one leg, that is; if you Truly do want to SEE the whole, picture. And, by the way, physical blindness has absolutely no affect on this at all.
The mind is our shepherd........ We will dwell in the house of the mind forever.

What is it about death that YOU don't understand?
Who is the 'YOU' here?

If it is 'me', then there is nothing in regards to what is it about death that I do NOT understand.

And, there is ONLY One Mind, of which I agree that ALL of 'you', human beings, do dwell within, as you have already acknowledged.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Dubious »

Since death only happens to physical beings, it cannot be a metaphysical event. Some may imagine - theists mostly - some metaphysical transaction to occur after death, where death becomes a cause to some other unknown or assumed effect, but death itself is straight forward and as physical as it can get.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by jayjacobus »

Dubious wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:38 am Since death only happens to physical beings, it cannot be a metaphysical event. Some may imagine - theists mostly - some metaphysical transaction to occur after death, where death becomes a cause to some other unknown or assumed effect, but death itself is straight forward and as physical as it can get.
I am dubious, too.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Dubious »

jayjacobus wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:04 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:38 am Since death only happens to physical beings, it cannot be a metaphysical event. Some may imagine - theists mostly - some metaphysical transaction to occur after death, where death becomes a cause to some other unknown or assumed effect, but death itself is straight forward and as physical as it can get.
I am dubious, too.
I'm dubious about most of the stuff written on philosophy forums! Hence the name.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

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Zarathustra wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:41 pm Can death be a metaphysical subject?
The obvious problem would be, how can one describe or explain, something one has never experienced directly by oneself?
Would it be, whatever is said about death, out of one's imagination or from the observations of others deaths?
Hence, can it ever be true or accurate?
Death can never be KNOWN, described, explained or experienced. So death is not available as a TRUE or accurate subject up for debate. A subject requires an awareness of knowledge.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by jayjacobus »

Dubious wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:55 am
jayjacobus wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:04 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:38 am Since death only happens to physical beings, it cannot be a metaphysical event. Some may imagine - theists mostly - some metaphysical transaction to occur after death, where death becomes a cause to some other unknown or assumed effect, but death itself is straight forward and as physical as it can get.
I am dubious, too.
I'm dubious about most of the stuff written on philosophy forums! Hence the name.
I am too but I am here to learn and some of the posts help me do that.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Dubious »

jayjacobus wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:21 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:55 am
jayjacobus wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:04 am

I am dubious, too.
I'm dubious about most of the stuff written on philosophy forums! Hence the name.
I am too but I am here to learn and some of the posts help me do that.
True, there are the occasional nuggets which rise to the surface compared to semi loads which sink to the bottom. What I've learned, first and foremost, is how excessively weird and stupid most people are; that's not because of any disagreement regarding an argument, which one would expect in debate forums, but the incredibly mindless distortions, illogic and inability to justify one's views, though insisting in its absolute truth by any means necessary...not excluding the most idiotic, vile and disgusting.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Dubious »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:23 am
Zarathustra wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:41 pm Can death be a metaphysical subject?
The obvious problem would be, how can one describe or explain, something one has never experienced directly by oneself?
Would it be, whatever is said about death, out of one's imagination or from the observations of others deaths?
Hence, can it ever be true or accurate?
Death can never be KNOWN, described, explained or experienced. So death is not available as a TRUE or accurate subject up for debate. A subject requires an awareness of knowledge.
That's absolutely true, though it may sound strange or contradictory to most people. To actually know death would require the non-sequitur of non-existence having to explain why it doesn't exist. When it comes to death, there really is NOTHING to talk about...NOTHING is not a good subject for debate.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

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Dubious wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:53 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:23 am
Zarathustra wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:41 pm Can death be a metaphysical subject?
The obvious problem would be, how can one describe or explain, something one has never experienced directly by oneself?
Would it be, whatever is said about death, out of one's imagination or from the observations of others deaths?
Hence, can it ever be true or accurate?
Death can never be KNOWN, described, explained or experienced. So death is not available as a TRUE or accurate subject up for debate. A subject requires an awareness of knowledge.
That's absolutely true, though it may sound strange or contradictory to most people. To actually know death would require the non-sequitur of non-existence having to explain why it doesn't exist. When it comes to death, there really is NOTHING to talk about...NOTHING is not a good subject for debate.
The truth behind the sense of all 'Sentience' which is the capacity to be aware of feelings and sensations simply cannot be touched by conceptualising it or making it known as an absolute truth.

Spiritual Guru's have long since the dawn of humanity speculated the most ridculous ''truth claims'' about the very essence and nature of 'Sentient Being'
They use meaningless concepts such as 'Awareness and Consciousness' which they believe are responsible for the fundamental and 'primordal essence' behind all physical manifestation. Never realising that their concepts are a fake overlay placed upon what will always be a totally unspeakable, unavailable, not-knowing mystery. Belief is all the human mind can muster, but it can never touch actual reality EVER

The belief there is Knowledge of the Creator of Birth, Death, and even the ridiculous claim of an Afterlife...is simply unavailable. People are just speculating about something they will NEVER know. People desire to know, even while deep down knowing they cannot know, but their persistence is relentless. People end up believing just about anything in their relentless search to touch truth.

Those who claim to know 'truth'....actually DO NOT know.

A 'knower' is simply a fictional character pretending to be real. Belief is constructed of pure empty 'dream substance', nothing more, nothing less.

Anyone who claims to KNOW is a conman, most of their listeners are being conned without knowing, that's the nature of a clever conman. To dupe gullible people people into believing their bullshit lying stories.

Other people are just naturally savvy about what's actually going on here, and those people die gracefully knowing full well, it's the only liberation there is.

I mean they die to the futile desire of wanting to know. They become what they are and have always been, which is mute of any knowledge, and just be, like every other mute animal, plant and rock, on the planet.

.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

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''The substance out of which all apparent objects are made is this eternal presence which knows no birth or death. It is forever at rest in its own eternity, its own ever-presence, dancing as every expression of experience.''

Rupert Spira said that.

__________

He is pointing back to the essence of reality using concepts. The fundamental essence being nothingness. All objects known are basically made from the very same substance or essence of what they are appearing in, namely emptiness.

Nothing can touch emptiness or nothingness, except emptiness and nothingness itself.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Dubious »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:30 am ''The substance out of which all apparent objects are made is this eternal presence which knows no birth or death. It is forever at rest in its own eternity, its own ever-presence, dancing as every expression of experience.''

Rupert Spira said that.

__________

He is pointing back to the essence of reality using concepts. The fundamental essence being nothingness. All objects known are basically made from the very same substance or essence of what they are appearing in, namely emptiness.

Nothing can touch emptiness or nothingness, except emptiness and nothingness itself.
Eternal presence out of which supposedly apparent objects are made could have been better described as Quantum Field Theory which accounts for EVERY particle our local reality, including ourselves, is made of.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

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Dubious wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:57 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:30 am ''The substance out of which all apparent objects are made is this eternal presence which knows no birth or death. It is forever at rest in its own eternity, its own ever-presence, dancing as every expression of experience.''

Rupert Spira said that.

__________

He is pointing back to the essence of reality using concepts. The fundamental essence being nothingness. All objects known are basically made from the very same substance or essence of what they are appearing in, namely emptiness.

Nothing can touch emptiness or nothingness, except emptiness and nothingness itself.
Eternal presence out of which supposedly apparent objects are made could have been better described as Quantum Field Theory which accounts for EVERY particle our local reality, including ourselves, is made of.
QFT is not an easy subject to digest for me. I kind of get the gist, but it's deep.

I personally have a deep connection to the sensation of emptiness and nothingness. I feel it in my life every second of the day.
I even remember what it was like before I was born. I know I'll return there when I die. And that makes me happy while in the here and now. I have a deep sense of relief in knowing I will not live forever. For me, life is suffering, but knowing it does not last for ever, makes me able to endure the suffering. So for me personally, the only positive and good thing about being a live sentient conscious being, is that I will one day die.

I totally trust in the process that birthed me to do same in my eventual death, I trust the process to do it's job. I'm just here for the ride, I have no control over being born or dying.

I could kill myself, but to be honest I actually hate with a passion, all violent acts.

I really HATE so much, intentional killing, it really scares the shit out of me. If someone attacked me, or wanted to murder me, I would never try to kill them in defense, I would rather let them kill me.

.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Dubious »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:06 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:57 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:30 am ''The substance out of which all apparent objects are made is this eternal presence which knows no birth or death. It is forever at rest in its own eternity, its own ever-presence, dancing as every expression of experience.''

Rupert Spira said that.

__________

He is pointing back to the essence of reality using concepts. The fundamental essence being nothingness. All objects known are basically made from the very same substance or essence of what they are appearing in, namely emptiness.

Nothing can touch emptiness or nothingness, except emptiness and nothingness itself.
Eternal presence out of which supposedly apparent objects are made could have been better described as Quantum Field Theory which accounts for EVERY particle our local reality, including ourselves, is made of.
QFT is not an easy subject to digest for me. I kind of get the gist, but it's deep.

I personally have a deep connection to the sensation of emptiness and nothingness.
.
Speaking for myself, when one examines the impersonal forces which make and keep one personal as expressed by character and feeling - which is not only a human condition - one gains a kind of semi-cold objectivity in realizing that this kind of detached reality incorporates its own philosophy causing any self-identity to become much more neutral in regarding itself.

This is not some enlightened automatic or autonomic response to all the emotions and feelings a person can have, but whenever one recalls those nethermost realities which created everything from stone to bone the perspectives of one's being seem to merge into an unprismed white-light neutrality in which I exist only as a momentary objective fact and where the eventuality of losing it is as impersonal as having been born.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Dontaskme »

Dubious wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:22 am
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:06 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:57 pm

Eternal presence out of which supposedly apparent objects are made could have been better described as Quantum Field Theory which accounts for EVERY particle our local reality, including ourselves, is made of.
QFT is not an easy subject to digest for me. I kind of get the gist, but it's deep.

I personally have a deep connection to the sensation of emptiness and nothingness.
.
Speaking for myself, when one examines the impersonal forces which make and keep one personal as expressed by character and feeling - which is not only a human condition - one gains a kind of semi-cold objectivity in realizing that this kind of detached reality incorporates its own philosophy causing any self-identity to become much more neutral in regarding itself.

This is not some enlightened automatic or autonomic response to all the emotions and feelings a person can have, but whenever one recalls those nethermost realities which created everything from stone to bone the perspectives of one's being seem to merge into an unprismed white-light neutrality in which I exist only as a momentary objective fact and where the eventuality of losing it is as impersonal as having been born.
Very well said, I couldn't have said it better. I Enjoy reading some of your intelligent responses.

For me personally, I see the human mind as an absolute insane asylum - It's a freak of nature.

I quickly learnt to stay sane by adopting a clear headed approach to my life, and that was to abstain from all human attachments. The discovery of Celibacy became a natural and effortless way for me to stay sane in this looney bin that is life on earth. I have no expectations as to what is going to happen next in life. I just accept it all. It's going to kill me anyway, so no point in hanging around trying to convince myself that prolonging the inevitable by living one more day is going to make an ounce of difference to the quality of my life. For me, I see no difference whether I live a day, a week, or 90 years, death is forever.


.
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Re: Death as Metaphysical Subject?

Post by Zarathustra »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:23 am
Zarathustra wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:41 pm Can death be a metaphysical subject?
The obvious problem would be, how can one describe or explain, something one has never experienced directly by oneself?
Would it be, whatever is said about death, out of one's imagination or from the observations of others deaths?
Hence, can it ever be true or accurate?
Death can never be KNOWN, described, explained or experienced. So death is not available as a TRUE or accurate subject up for debate. A subject requires an awareness of knowledge.
So, you are pessimistic about death being the topic for metaphysical considerations and debates. Is that right?
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