What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am What is the "simulation" supposed to be "simulating"?

A "simulated" apple is something that looks like a (real) apple. A "simulated" experience is one that convinces you that it's a real experience. There are always, then, two apples or two experiences, in any situation that implicates a "simulation": the real, and the simulated one.

But if there is only the "simulation," then it's not "simulating" anything. And then, it's not a "simulation."

If the "simulation" is the only reality, then there's nothing for it to "simulate." So even using the word "simulation" assumes the existence of two realms, not one: one reality being the original, and the "simulation" being the copy.

So the question you're asking is not if we live merely in a "simulated" reality, but also, where is the other reality, the real one it (supposedly) "simulates"? :shock:
Exactly.

One of the many things that makes the idea rather silly.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Terrapin Station »

uwot wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:22 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:38 amElon Musk and others think we may live in a simulation. What do you think? Is it probable or plausible?
This idea that reality is not what it seems has been a feature of philosophy since Plato's allegory of the cave. Basically Plato likened our experience of the world to watching shadows on the wall of a cave. The shadows are cast by 'the real world' as it passes between the mouth of the cave and the true source of light.
In Plato's case, this was because (a) he was so confused about the ontology of mental phenomena, and (b) he had ideological views that he catered to where that was part of what made him so confused about mental phenomena. He had a need to place mental phenomena in the objective world and to claim that "real" stuff, where that was a term that had an evaluative, sort of "elitist" normativity to it, amounted to unchanging essences, etc.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Age »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:20 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am What is the "simulation" supposed to be "simulating"?

A "simulated" apple is something that looks like a (real) apple. A "simulated" experience is one that convinces you that it's a real experience. There are always, then, two apples or two experiences, in any situation that implicates a "simulation": the real, and the simulated one.

But if there is only the "simulation," then it's not "simulating" anything. And then, it's not a "simulation."

If the "simulation" is the only reality, then there's nothing for it to "simulate." So even using the word "simulation" assumes the existence of two realms, not one: one reality being the original, and the "simulation" being the copy.

So the question you're asking is not if we live merely in a "simulated" reality, but also, where is the other reality, the real one it (supposedly) "simulates"? :shock:
That's my take on it. A simulation is going to be running within a "reality." So for example without the "real" world, there can be no simulated reality called Grand Theft Auto. There would be no "place" for the simulation to be running.
Okay, so END OF STORY. What else is there here to be worked out and discovered?
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:20 am Another question I think it brings up is can a character in a simulation be conscious?
How are 'you' defining the word 'conscious' here?
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:20 am If we're purely characters in a simulation with no other reality than that, then how can we be conscious?
Who and/or what does the word 'we' here refer to, exactly?

And, if a character in a simulation can be conscious, then by how that is created is how 'we' can be conscious.

Also, you came to the True, Right, and Correct conclusion that;
There would be no "place" for the simulation to be running. Through and from the True, Right, and Correct premise that;
A simulation is going to be running within a 'reality'. Through and from the True, Right, and Correct logical reasoning that;
Without the 'real world', there can be no simulated reality. Yet, you do not trust your own logic and conclusion here, so you go to ask the next two illogical and nonsensical questions.

Why not just accept the FACT that without a 'real world' a 'simulated world' could not even come into existence, and then just move on and forward?
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:20 am How does a wannabe simulator create consciousness?
There is NO such 'thing' as a 'wannabe simulator'. Only beings can create, or want to create, a simulator. 'you', human beings, really do need to learn to just speak thee ACTUAL Truth ONLY and ONLY thee ACTUAL Truth, that is; if you REALLY do want to learn and see thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

Also, how are you defining the word 'consciousness' here?
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:20 am Consciousness cannot be seen, felt, heard, etc. by an outside observer.
Can 'consciousness' be seen, felt, heard, et cetera by an inside observer? And, what is the difference between an inside and an outside observer?

Also, if you can NOT explain or can NOT back up and support what you say and mean, and/or just expect others to ASSUME and/or just KNOW what you are meaning, then WHY say things in the first place?
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:20 am So how does a would-be simulation creator knowingly create consciousness? Presumably, if there is a God, then only God could do something like that.
WHY would 'you' ASSUME, or even say, such a thing?

To previous human beings what 'you' are doing now, in the days when this was written, was seen as "only God could do such things like that".

Human beings are creating, in the days when this was written, what they call, "artificial intelligence", so would stop 'you', beings, from progressing further and creating characters in video games from having 'consciousness'?
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:20 am So if we are in any simulation at all, then it could (perhaps) only be a divinely created one--I would think.
Instead of you just LOOKING AT thee ACTUAL Truth ONLY. Which IS;
Without the "real" world, there can be no simulated reality called Grand Theft Auto.
So, if any simulation, like, for example, the one with that name, was running, then ALL of them would HAVE TO BE running within 'Reality, Itself.
Therefore, there is ALWAYS One True Reality, in which EVERY thing is happening.


You much prefer to 'try to' argue and fight for your OWN BELIEFS, which are VERY OBVIOUS here by the way, instead of just remaining with thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' ONLY.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:38 am Elon Musk and others think we may live in a simulation. What do you think?
I think that it's some silly SciFi fantasizing.

It's not that it's impossible. It's that there's no particular reason to believe that it would be the case. Just like countless other SciFi/fantasy scenarios we could come up with. It's like the sort of thing you think of when you're really high and that seems really profound until the buzz wears off. And then it seems embarrassing that it seemed really profound when you were stoned.
Are you speaking from experience here?
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:06 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am What is the "simulation" supposed to be "simulating"?

A "simulated" apple is something that looks like a (real) apple. A "simulated" experience is one that convinces you that it's a real experience. There are always, then, two apples or two experiences, in any situation that implicates a "simulation": the real, and the simulated one.

But if there is only the "simulation," then it's not "simulating" anything. And then, it's not a "simulation."

If the "simulation" is the only reality, then there's nothing for it to "simulate." So even using the word "simulation" assumes the existence of two realms, not one: one reality being the original, and the "simulation" being the copy.

So the question you're asking is not if we live merely in a "simulated" reality, but also, where is the other reality, the real one it (supposedly) "simulates"? :shock:
Exactly.

One of the many things that makes the idea rather silly.
What EXACTLY is the 'thing' here, which makes the idea that 'we' could be living in a simulation rather silly?
Age
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:10 pm
uwot wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:22 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:38 amElon Musk and others think we may live in a simulation. What do you think? Is it probable or plausible?
This idea that reality is not what it seems has been a feature of philosophy since Plato's allegory of the cave. Basically Plato likened our experience of the world to watching shadows on the wall of a cave. The shadows are cast by 'the real world' as it passes between the mouth of the cave and the true source of light.
In Plato's case, this was because (a) he was so confused about the ontology of mental phenomena, and (b) he had ideological views that he catered to where that was part of what made him so confused about mental phenomena.
But yet 'you', the one called "terrapin station" here, are not at all confused in ANY way, shape, nor form about mental phenomena correct?
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:10 pm He had a need to place mental phenomena in the objective world and to claim that "real" stuff, where that was a term that had an evaluative, sort of "elitist" normativity to it, amounted to unchanging essences, etc.
And what EXACTLY is wrong with this view?

Also, WHY do you propose that it was a 'need'?
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:14 pm
Okay, so END OF STORY. What else is there here to be worked out and discovered?
Self-concept is the fundamental simulation.

- Self-concept is each person’s fundamental simulacrum.
- Self-concept is the fundamental duality.
- Self-concept is a mental construct.
- Self-concept is the most precious thing to each and every person.
- Self-concept will be defended above life, e.g., the martyrs and self-sacrificers.
- Folks vote for self-concept, not for the candidate.
- Self-concept is arbitrary.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by commonsense »

Age wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:37 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am What is the "simulation" supposed to be "simulating"?

A "simulated" apple is something that looks like a (real) apple.
But how would 'you' know if 'you' are in a simulation?

The one who is making/creating the simulation may have made you think that a "simulated" apple is something that looks like a (real) apple, but in actuality, a (real) apple may look like an orange, for example.

If one is in a simulation, then they could not know what a, so called, "real thing" actually looks like.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am A "simulated" experience is one that convinces you that it's a real experience.
But this is obviously false. If one is convinced that they are in a simulation, then that experience has obviously proven that they are NOT convinced that it is a real experience.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am There are always, then, two apples or two experiences, in any situation that implicates a "simulation": the real, and the simulated one.
Did you mean to say, 'at least'. Because there could be countless simulated experiences, plus the, so called, "real experience".

Also, one could very easily create a simulated experience in which the ones within that simulated experience experience dragons, for example, but, in reality, there are NO real dragons AT ALL.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am But if there is only the "simulation," then it's not "simulating" anything. And then, it's not a "simulation."
Your, so called, "logic" does NOT follow 100% accurately.

Also, thee ACTUAL Truth is just far simpler.

There could NEVER be just a "simulation". There could be NO 'if' here and so there is NO 'if' here. Therefore, the rest of what you wrote and said here is just moot, anyway.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am If the "simulation" is the only reality,
This is just NONSENSICAL.

How could the "simulation" be the only reality. This is just not even a possibility in imagination, let alone possible in the Real and True "world".
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am then there's nothing for it to "simulate."
Again this is just moot. There is NO 'if' here, also.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am So even using the word "simulation" assumes the existence of two realms, not one: one reality being the original, and the "simulation" being the copy.
Is this an 'assumption' or just a FACT.

The word "simulation" in the context of what is being talked about here is in relation to 'a life' or 'a world'. But this in NO WAY infers NOR assumes that the "simulated" 'life' or 'world' is an EXACT REPLICATE of the Real 'Life' or 'world'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:59 am So the question you're asking is not if we live merely in a "simulated" reality, but also, where is the other reality, the real one it (supposedly) "simulates"? :shock:
The question is ACTUALLY asking what the writer/poster of the question ACTUALLY INTENDED, and, 'shock', ONLY the one who wrote/posted the question KNOWS what the question is REALLY asking.

AND, the ONLY True way that ANY one else can obtain this KNOWING is by just asking the writer/poster A CLARIFYING QUESTION, or more.
Age, I took “simulation” when in quotation marks to mean so-called simulation, or in other words to mean reality. Not that it would change the worth of your points, but just saying.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by uwot »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:10 pm
uwot wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:22 amThis idea that reality is not what it seems has been a feature of philosophy since Plato's allegory of the cave. Basically Plato likened our experience of the world to watching shadows on the wall of a cave. The shadows are cast by 'the real world' as it passes between the mouth of the cave and the true source of light.
In Plato's case, this was because (a) he was so confused about the ontology of mental phenomena, and (b) he had ideological views that he catered to where that was part of what made him so confused about mental phenomena. He had a need to place mental phenomena in the objective world and to claim that "real" stuff, where that was a term that had an evaluative, sort of "elitist" normativity to it, amounted to unchanging essences, etc.
I think Plato's theory of forms was a response to Parmenides' monism. It's not very different to some shades of mathematical realism and is effectively the opening clause of most variations of ontological arguments for god. It's a while since I read the Phaedo, so why do you think Plato was especially confused about mental phenomena? I mean, frankly, who isn't?
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by RCSaunders »

uwot wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:46 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:07 pmWhat's a simulation? If it's all a simulation, where did the idea of a simulation come from?
Could be anything.
Well that explains it, alright.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Terrapin Station »

uwot wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:40 pm I think Plato's theory of forms was a response to Parmenides' monism. It's not very different to some shades of mathematical realism and is effectively the opening clause of most variations of ontological arguments for god. It's a while since I read the Phaedo, so why do you think Plato was especially confused about mental phenomena? I mean, frankly, who isn't?
Rather than simply realizing that such as concept formation, reasoning, valuing, etc. are things that individuals do, Plato (and subsequently Aristotle and many others) projected such phenomena into the world at large, so that concepts, rationality, etc. were seen as some sort of abstract, objective phenomena that you sort of "intuit" the "true nature" of. That's a big confusion that led to a lot of bad philosophy, where the effects/influence of that are still propagating today.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Sculptor »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:38 am Elon Musk and others think we may live in a simulation.
Does he? Does he really??
He needs to get a job. He has too much time on his hands to think stupid thoughts.

Eveyone knows we are all jus brains in vats.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Dontaskme »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:38 am Elon Musk and others think we may live in a simulation. What do you think? Is it probable or plausible? And if we are living in a simulation, then what is the "reality" that the simulation is running within? For example, if we use the game Grand Theft Auto as an example of a simulation, then we would say that "reality" is me playing the game on a computer screen. The "simulation" is inside the processor and is viewed on the screen. Me looking at the computer screen while I play is "reality." Does a simulation presume a "reality" that it must be running in? And if so, then is it a violation of Occam's Razor to assume that we live in a simulation? Because, if we live in a simulation then we need to postulate the existence of a second world called "reality" within which the simulation is running.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... imulation/
EM is right to speculate we are living in a simulation.

Reality is a simulation simply because it’s nondual.

It’s a simulation because the characters are not real. The characters are not watching the movie of life, the characters are being watched by the light that animates them.

It’s no different than watching a movie on a tv ... every character seen is made out of the same substance that is watching....in other words LIGHT...with some sound effects thrown in of course.


.
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by uwot »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:13 pmRather than simply realizing that such as concept formation, reasoning, valuing, etc. are things that individuals do, Plato (and subsequently Aristotle and many others) projected such phenomena into the world at large, so that concepts, rationality, etc. were seen as some sort of abstract, objective phenomena that you sort of "intuit" the "true nature" of. That's a big confusion that led to a lot of bad philosophy, where the effects/influence of that are still propagating today.
To be fair, much of western intellectual history has been a search for objective facts or absolute truths. Fundamentally, that's the empiricist and rationalist dichotomy that goes back to the Milesians and Eleatics. I wrote a piece on that for the magazine a while back: https://philosophynow.org/issues/104/Ph ... d_Branches What most people think of as science began when, according to the myth, Galileo muttered 'And yet it moves' while the inquisitors were leading him away. That the Earth moves is an objective fact at odds with the Absolute Truth that the Earth is the centre of the universe. If you are chasing that "intuit" the "true nature" dragon, you are going down the Kantian rabbit hole. Fair goes, there's no way to avoid it realistically, but yeah, we are still in the world of bad philosophy today. I personally think that string theory has been a waste of several really promising careers - what has Ed Witten actually achieved, for example?
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Re: What do you think? Do we live in a simulation?

Post by Dimebag »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:09 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:38 am Elon Musk and others think we may live in a simulation. What do you think? Is it probable or plausible? And if we are living in a simulation, then what is the "reality" that the simulation is running within? For example, if we use the game Grand Theft Auto as an example of a simulation, then we would say that "reality" is me playing the game on a computer screen. The "simulation" is inside the processor and is viewed on the screen. Me looking at the computer screen while I play is "reality." Does a simulation presume a "reality" that it must be running in? And if so, then is it a violation of Occam's Razor to assume that we live in a simulation? Because, if we live in a simulation then we need to postulate the existence of a second world called "reality" within which the simulation is running.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... imulation/
EM is right to speculate we are living in a simulation.

Reality is a simulation simply because it’s nondual.

It’s a simulation because the characters are not real. The characters are not watching the movie of life, the characters are being watched by the light that animates them.

It’s no different than watching a movie on a tv ... every character seen is made out of the same substance that is watching....in other words LIGHT...with some sound effects thrown in of course.


.
I’m not saying I disagree, but, can you explain or expand on what you mean by light? Is the knowing of sound also light? I have heard this before and it makes me wonder how the light is the basis of all knowing.
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