make truth?

So what's really going on?

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Age
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Re: make truth?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
LOL "When 100% of the world believed the world was flat".

Talk about a lie being BELIEVED by more people then do NOT believe.

A fairy tale told to EXPOSE and REVEAL A Truth does NOT mean the fairy tale is 100% accurate and true.

But now that we are discussing about 100% of people, agreeing and accepting of one thing, then what ACTUALLY happens is this is what makes, creates and/or causes thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

See, it IS what 'you', people, agree with and accept, which is the VERY THING that makes 'things' true, or false.

But, some of you, in the days when this was written just STILL could NOT see NOR understand this Truth.

AND, if ANY one wants to CHALLENGE or just QUESTION 'me' on this, then go right ahead. See, I CAN and WILL back up and support what I say, and with IRREFUTABLE evidence AND proof, by the way.
Age
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Re: make truth?

Post by Age »

Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
to the believers it was

definitions change with perspectives

-Imp
EXCELLENT OBSERVATION.

To a "believer", or a "disbeliever", what they believe, or disbelieve, could NOT be wrong. To even think they could be wrong would go against their WHOLE 'self'.

Also, because absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer, if the observer, or perspective, changes, then so to do the definitions.
Age
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Re: make truth?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pm
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
to the believers it was
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."
Well then they were "imaginers" and NOT "believers". If people "just imagine" some thing, then they are NOT "believing" some thing.

LOOK, 'you', "immanuel can", are a PRIME EXAMPLE of a "believer". And, by your OWN words, and conviction, God HAS TO BE Real AND True, without absolutely ANY doubt AT ALL. But this is ONLY to 'you', thee ACTUAL reason for this, is BECAUSE 'you' BELIEVE it is so.

'you' do NOT 'imagine' God is Real, 'you' 'believe' God is Real, correct?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
definitions change with perspectives
But that's not the question.
That, LITERALLY, was NOT a question. This can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN. That was CLEARLY A STATEMENT.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"

And, of course, they don't.
LOL Since when was this "The question"? OBVIOUSLY, since you made it up and created here now.

Also, OBVIOUSLY, 'facts' do NOT change, with ANY thing. If a 'fact' is 'that', which has been ALREADY PROVEN true, then this can NOT change.

'you', adult human beings, REALLY do NEED to LOOK AT 'things' far MORE DEEPLY and THOROUGHLY. That is; If you REALLY do want to discover, learn, and/or SEE thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
Skepdick
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Re: make truth?

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:48 am What would "absolute truth" even refer to? Or rather what would "truth" be if there can be "absolute truth"?
It's precisely because truth isn't relative to anything (and therefore not relative to a referrer) is why there's nothing to be said about it.

Truth. God. Same idea.

Neither exists.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: make truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:36 am Earth does exist, but the conclusion that is has a shape does not follow.
So you think "things that exist as solids" can exist in no "shape"?
Trivially demonstrated by the counter example: water exists and has no shape.
Worse than "trivially": "irrelevantly," is the right word.

Water is not a solid, in case you were unaware. The Earth is solid.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:20 pm Any solid that exists has a shape.
Begging the question.

For something to be deemed a "solid" it needs to have a firm and stable in shape.

You've smuggled the conclusion in your premise.
No, it hasn't been "smuggled" at all. Rather, it's an analytic truism. In other words, it's indisputable.
Earth is not a solid.
Yeah, actually...it is.

You've once again had to deny reality, in order to persist.
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Re: make truth?

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:15 pm So you think "things that exist as solids" can exist in no "shape"?
I do?

I am pointing out that Earth's existence doesn't imply Earth's solidity.

If you are claiming that Earth is a solid (tautologous claim to Earth has a shape) you need to justify that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:15 pm Water is not a solid, in case you were unaware. The Earth is solid.
Earth is not a solid.
Yeah, actually...it is.
solid adjective 1. firm and stable in shape

IF the Earth has a firm and stable shape THEN you can say conclude that Earth is solid.

Does the Earth have a stable shape? Begging the question :roll:
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:15 pm No, it hasn't been "smuggled" at all. Rather, it's an analytic truism. In other words, it's indisputable.
Analyticity is circular.

It's not even indisputable. It's vacuous.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:15 pm You've once again had to deny reality, in order to persist.
I am not denying reality. Only your vacuous claims about it.
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Lacewing
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Re: make truth?

Post by Lacewing »

DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
"Making truth" is what humans do... with all of their labels and definitions and beliefs. If no humans were on the Earth, no other form of life would be concerned about the idea of "truth". Only humans imagine what truth is, and use it to justify and create all sorts of things, which are then claimed as truth too.

Man sees his creation and thinks it is good. Man thinks that what he sees (the way he sees it) is the way it is. Even if lots of other people might see other perspectives, man still claims his perspective as the truth.

What does this mean about truth and man?
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Re: make truth?

Post by DPMartin »

Belinda wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:52 am
DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
Nobody knows whether or not there be absolute truth. Absolute truth transcends knowledge. No matter how many people believe some idea or experience being eaten by tigers we cannot absolutely explain truth, nor predict that tigers always will kill and eat people.

Lying is deliberately trying to mislead and has nothing to do with transcendental truth.It is the case that social reality might possibly be founded upon a culture of deliberate lies, and if this happens the society is in trouble unless someone comes along and leads people to knowledge and reason.
what proof do you have that truth can't be known or even explained?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: make truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:15 pm So you think "things that exist as solids" can exist in no "shape"?
I do?
Apparently.

And I know where you're trying to go. But you know you're playing games.

The instrument that can measure my boredom with this strategy has yet to be invented. So I'll forego the pleasure.
DPMartin
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Re: make truth?

Post by DPMartin »

Lacewing wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:41 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
"Making truth" is what humans do... with all of their labels and definitions and beliefs. If no humans were on the Earth, no other form of life would be concerned about the idea of "truth". Only humans imagine what truth is, and use it to justify and create all sorts of things, which are then claimed as truth too.

Man sees his creation and thinks it is good. Man thinks that what he sees (the way he sees it) is the way it is. Even if lots of other people might see other perspectives, man still claims his perspective as the truth.

What does this mean about truth and man?
making lies is what humans do, truth was there before man, and will be after man, so there's no need for man to make it, change it for it to be the truth.

as far as the rest of your garble, man does want to be the judge of good and evil in the earth, that's what makes him a god in his own eyes.
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Lacewing
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Re: make truth?

Post by Lacewing »

DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pm truth was there before man, and will be after man, so there's no need for man to make it, change it for it to be the truth.
How do you know this?
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pmman does want to be the judge of good and evil in the earth, that's what makes him a god in his own eyes.
Is that what you're doing? Being the judge of truth and lies, makes you a god in your own eyes?
DPMartin
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Re: make truth?

Post by DPMartin »

Lacewing wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:17 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pm truth was there before man, and will be after man, so there's no need for man to make it, change it for it to be the truth.
How do you know this?
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pmman does want to be the judge of good and evil in the earth, that's what makes him a god in his own eyes.
Is that what you're doing? Being the judge of truth and lies, makes you a god in your own eyes?
i can see your conversation is pointless, seeing you are trying to change the meaning of what is posted.

it seems you mince what men perceive as truth or true and what is actually the truth as one. and they are not. that's not to say truth can't be known, but the truth has to be revealed before it is known.

and no, the point is the Creator and Judge is judge of what is good and evil for His creation and the creatures therein, no exceptions. but i understand you don't believe, or want to believe that. heck you probably abhor that thought from what i can see in your postings.
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Lacewing
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Re: make truth?

Post by Lacewing »

DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:28 pm it seems you mince what men perceive as truth or true and what is actually the truth as one. and they are not. that's not to say truth can't be known, but the truth has to be revealed before it is known.
How do you know there is actual truth? Simply making such a claim, as you do, does not magically distinguish it as more true than what others think.
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Re: make truth?

Post by DPMartin »

Lacewing wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:42 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:28 pm it seems you mince what men perceive as truth or true and what is actually the truth as one. and they are not. that's not to say truth can't be known, but the truth has to be revealed before it is known.
How do you know there is actual truth? Simply making such a claim, as you do, does not magically distinguish it as more true than what others think.
if your trying to prove the mind is delusional, sure it is, therefore the truth is from something other than man, that has to be revealed to man. hence my reference to the source of truth, which is the Word of God. and not my thoughts or opinions, which are in error, but God's, which are not in error.

so if its what you think then its in error, if its what God thinks its not, and man's judgements of what truth is is in error.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: make truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:29 pm so if its what you think then its in error, if its what God thinks its not, and man's judgements of what truth is is in error.
That, of course, would imply there IS a truth. Namely, it's what God knows is true.

It's not hard to make the case that mankind does not know everything that God knows. For example, God must know the present size of the universe, which is also a thing that no person knows. Or God must be able to resolve pi to any number of digits...

But what is our grounds for saying that mankind doesn't know anything that God knows? If God knows that, say, the height of Everest is presently 8,848 meters, or that salt can be dissolved in water, why can't a human being know the same?
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